Then why do they dump all over our decorated vetrans?
(And I'll just keep the reduction in funds in the budget for vetran benefits, health care, and medical costs out of this.)
John Murtha - A decorated Vietnam vet, 2 purple hearts, joined the Marines during the Koren war and volunteered to fight in Vietnam. He received a Bronze star, a Combat "V", two purple hearts and a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He actually retired from the Naval Reserve in 1990 receiving a Navy Distinguised Service Medal.
Of course now a biased right wing study is questioning Murtha's purple hearts, all but saying that he does not deserve any recognition for his continued military service to our country
---
John Kerry - Again most everyone knows about his Vietnam experiences, he also was well decorated and saved a few men's lives.
Karl Rove put together a great little smear campaign to make Kerry look like an unfit leader and a poor soldier (with out really saying why) and questioned his military service. Something almost remeniscnt (sp?) of how many Vietnam Vets might've been received by America when they returned home.
----
John McCain - A POW in Vietnam for 5 1/2 years, would later state, "Do not call me a 'war hero'...I am anything but! The fact that I was incompetent enough to get shot down twice in war should dissuade you from that fact."
Rove & Co strike again, whispers about the legitimacy and race of McCain's adopted darker skinned daughter. And of course he suddenly became an anti-religious guy, and the Religious Right was turned against him. Even recently some Conservative leaders have been very upset at McCain for his stance on tourture and his unwillingness to agree with Bush and Cheney on the issue.
-----
Max Cleland
A disabled Vietnam Army Vet, he was awarded a silver star and a bronze star. He was diabled by picking up a live grenade that exploded in his hand.
In 2002 he was running against Conservative (and a draft dodger) and lost the race which could be tied to commercials run against him that depicted him as a sympathizer to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, which basically questioned his patriotism.
Cleland's story especially frustrates me, his opponent bashed him for being unpatriotic but dodged the draft on a claim that is weak, at best.
So what do these guys all have in common? 3 of 4 are Democrats, but all spoke out against Bush, or expressed concern over what the administration was doing. Kerry questioned Iraq (after he voted for it) McCain questioned Bush on many conservative policies, Cleland claimed Bush was "stonewalling" in the 9/11 investigation, and Murtha called for a plan to withdraw troops from Iraq.
I find it very distasteful for those who question our veterans especially on their service to our country. Express your concerns, but don't fabricate stories to discredit them. This is what is done to our Vets now? Ugh...
(Editorial - Of course I have a lefty slant in this post, and I don't expect most to agree with me. And yes I know Democrats, Independents, Green, Libertarian, Conservative and Liberal polticians have discredited people, and used made up information against these men and women).
Then why do they dump all over our decorated vetrans?
(And I'll just keep the reduction in funds in the budget for vetran benefits, health care, and medical costs out of this.)
John Murtha - A decorated Vietnam vet, 2 purple hearts, joined the Marines during the Koren war and volunteered to fight in Vietnam. He received a Bronze star, a Combat "V", two purple hearts and a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He actually retired from the Naval Reserve in 1990 receiving a Navy Distinguised Service Medal.
Of course now a biased right wing study is questioning Murtha's purple hearts, all but saying that he does not deserve any recognition for his continued military service to our country
---
John Kerry - Again most everyone knows about his Vietnam experiences, he also was well decorated and saved a few men's lives.
Karl Rove put together a great little smear campaign to make Kerry look like an unfit leader and a poor soldier (with out really saying why) and questioned his military service. Something almost remeniscnt (sp?) of how many Vietnam Vets might've been received by America when they returned home.
----
John McCain - A POW in Vietnam for 5 1/2 years, would later state, "Do not call me a 'war hero'...I am anything but! The fact that I was incompetent enough to get shot down twice in war should dissuade you from that fact."
Rove & Co strike again, whispers about the legitimacy and race of McCain's adopted darker skinned daughter. And of course he suddenly became an anti-religious guy, and the Religious Right was turned against him. Even recently some Conservative leaders have been very upset at McCain for his stance on tourture and his unwillingness to agree with Bush and Cheney on the issue.
-----
Max Cleland
A disabled Vietnam Army Vet, he was awarded a silver star and a bronze star. He was diabled by picking up a live grenade that exploded in his hand.
In 2002 he was running against Conservative (and a draft dodger) and lost the race which could be tied to commercials run against him that depicted him as a sympathizer to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, which basically questioned his patriotism.
Cleland's story especially frustrates me, his opponent bashed him for being unpatriotic but dodged the draft on a claim that is weak, at best.
So what do these guys all have in common? 3 of 4 are Democrats, but all spoke out against Bush, or expressed concern over what the administration was doing. Kerry questioned Iraq (after he voted for it) McCain questioned Bush on many conservative policies, Cleland claimed Bush was "stonewalling" in the 9/11 investigation, and Murtha called for a plan to withdraw troops from Iraq.
I find it very distasteful for those who question our veterans especially on their service to our country. Express your concerns, but don't fabricate stories to discredit them. This is what is done to our Vets now? Ugh...
(Editorial - Of course I have a lefty slant in this post, and I don't expect most to agree with me. And yes I know Democrats, Independents, Green, Libertarian, Conservative and Liberal polticians have discredited people, and used made up information against these men and women).
God bless America and Go Griz
They stop being horoes when they become poloticians.They dont get a free pass!!!! All the above named have tried to say whatever they want and then hide behind thier past. It dosent work anymore. Murtha and Kerry are FLAMING LIBERALS who flip flop every day.
I've been to all 57 States!!!!
I'm not a racist but everyone else is!!!!
My wife loves America!!!!
Really, I was born in America!!!!
My Pastors are just mis quoted!!!
Vote for me and watch for change!!! As in change my opinion everyday.
Last edited by Paytonlives on Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
In my mind they're always heros. Go after them based on the issues and not their military history, thats just cowardly.
So Kerry is still a hero, even though he tossed has metals/ribon over the whitehouse fence? Hes still a hero when HE LIED about the thing soldiers were doing in Vietnam??? Hes still a hero when he got 3 Purple hearts in 5 months. Something NO Millitary man I know thinks is possible...
If hes a hero we are poop
I've been to all 57 States!!!!
I'm not a racist but everyone else is!!!!
My wife loves America!!!!
Really, I was born in America!!!!
My Pastors are just mis quoted!!!
Vote for me and watch for change!!! As in change my opinion everyday.
Then why do they dump all over our decorated vetrans?
(And I'll just keep the reduction in funds in the budget for vetran benefits, health care, and medical costs out of this.)
John Murtha - A decorated Vietnam vet, 2 purple hearts, joined the Marines during the Koren war and volunteered to fight in Vietnam. He received a Bronze star, a Combat "V", two purple hearts and a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He actually retired from the Naval Reserve in 1990 receiving a Navy Distinguised Service Medal.
Of course now a biased right wing study is questioning Murtha's purple hearts, all but saying that he does not deserve any recognition for his continued military service to our country
if his intentions were true he would know how his words are affecting our soldigers overseas
Quote:
---
John Kerry - Again most everyone knows about his Vietnam experiences, he also was well decorated and saved a few men's lives.
...snip... actually there is a movie for you to see "stolen honor" JFK has a plaque in capital of vitenam thanking him for his service to the cause after his so called 3 month service during the war...btw the "awards" are questionable and GW was the only poltication to sign the form releasing his service record....shal we say "dishonorable dischage"
Quote:
----
John McCain - A POW in Vietnam for 5 1/2 years, would later state, "Do not call me a 'war hero'...I am anything but! The fact that I was incompetent enough to get shot down twice in war should dissuade you from that fact."
i read some reports that aledge that he got preferencial treatment at the hanoi hilton because he is the son of a admril. but then again that is just like getting preferencial treatment by a con artist...
Quote:
-----
Max Cleland
A disabled Vietnam Army Vet, he was awarded a silver star and a bronze star. He was diabled by picking up a live grenade that exploded in his hand.
In 2002 he was running against Conservative (and a draft dodger) and lost the race which could be tied to commercials run against him that depicted him as a sympathizer to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, which basically questioned his patriotism.
Cleland's story especially frustrates me, his opponent bashed him for being unpatriotic but dodged the draft on a claim that is weak, at best.
So what do these guys all have in common? 3 of 4 are Democrats, but all spoke out against Bush, or expressed concern over what the administration was doing. Kerry questioned Iraq (after he voted for it) McCain questioned Bush on many conservative policies, Cleland claimed Bush was "stonewalling" in the 9/11 investigation, and Murtha called for a plan to withdraw troops from Iraq.
I find it very distasteful for those who question our veterans especially on their service to our country. Express your concerns, but don't fabricate stories to discredit them. This is what is done to our Vets now? Ugh...
(Editorial - Of course I have a lefty slant in this post, and I don't expect most to agree with me. And yes I know Democrats, Independents, Green, Libertarian, Conservative and Liberal polticians have discredited people, and used made up information against these men and women).
God bless America and Go Cats
i always knew you had it in ya!
And now my turn
in this world of free speach we do have the right to say basically anything we want. you have the right to critisize whoever you wish, just like concervitives have the right to flame these guys *especially Kerry...poor example if you ask me* because their actions/statements/words are spoken at a time in which we are at war.
class 1996
Progressives look at reality through the lens of Liberalism
Remax, I was in volved in Operation Desert Storm, served on a Navy ship that hit a mine. And I consider my self closer to conservative, I am no where near a liberal. But I think the thing you miss is that BOTH parties use those people they can to advance thier agendas and discard those people who don't.
The thing about Kerry that bothers me is that the Vietnamese consider him as someone who helped thier cause, I have even heard there is a museum in Hanaoi where they talk about him and Jane Fonda. I personally think that we should have never involved ourselves in Vietnam but once there the goal should have been victory. It it is not worth doing what it takes to win, it is not worth being there. Also remember it was a DEMOCRATIC administration that got us involved over there. A fact that was lost on Kerry (and other Democrats) who like to put 100% of the blame on Nixon when that is simply not the case. Kerry, in the campaign talked about how he was in Vietnam and Nixon, this and Nixon that. Nixon was not even president when Kerry was in Vietnam. And Kerry was not there very long. In country for only about 3 or 4 months, if memory serves.
I like you as a poster but it just some times seems to me that you leftward bias only lets you see one side of issues that are often very complicated.
I don't consider myself a Democrat or a Republican, but on MOST (not all) issues I would probably match up better with the GOP. That said what bothers a lot of people is that the Left seems to WANT the US to fail in Iraq, and elsewhere. They seem to think what is bad for Bush has to be good for them, or so it seems. It is clear they hate Bush far more than Bin Laden and al Queda. That is why the Dems are having so much trouble getting traction with the voters, despite the many short comings of the Bush Administration. That and they don't seem to have a plan of thier own to offer.
Well said Navy Blue. I concur with your comments completely.
It just shocks me how many Americans appear to hate Bush more than they hate our enemies. What's especially wierd is that our enemies are trying to kill us all....
Well said Navy Blue. I concur with your comments completely.
It just shocks me how many Americans appear to hate Bush more than they hate our enemies. What's especially wierd is that our enemies are trying to kill us all....
Yeah, if you're only exposure to "liberals" and "Bush-haters" is your TV or your radio, you might think that way. If you actually talk to people who really dislike Bush, however, you would learn that the "they hate Bush more than they hate the terrorists" thing is just a straw man argument put forth by the usual suspects. I have yet to meet anyone who isn't adamant about stopping terrorism, and I also happen to know a lot of people who don't like Bush at all, so I can't tell you that from my experience, there really aren't many people out there who want us to fail or don't want to stop terrorism.
There are simply a LOT of people who don't think Bush is the guy who can do either.
But, in closed circles of conservatives, I know that these kinds of straw man arguments are made all the time -- I listen to right wing radio occasionally, so I'm familiar with the talking points.
Joined: 05 Nov 2002 Posts: 1549 Location: Corner of No and Where 615 eGriz Bucks
Hells bells wrote:
Re/MaxGriz wrote:
John McCain - A POW in Vietnam for 5 1/2 years, would later state, "Do not call me a 'war hero'...I am anything but! The fact that I was incompetent enough to get shot down twice in war should dissuade you from that fact."
i read some reports that aledge that he got preferencial treatment at the hanoi hilton because he is the son of a admril. but then again that is just like getting preferencial treatment by a con artist...
You know, of course, that they tied his hands behind his back, stuck a broom handle between his elbows and hung him in the air by that broom handle until both his arms dislocated and then broke, right? And that they then threw him into a cell without medical care, right? And that he suffers from the poorly healed breaks to this day, right?
-------------------------------------------------------
The best way to predict the future is to create it.
-----Peter Drucker
Hells Bells, he was offered preferential treatment from the enemy because his Dad was the highest ranking admiral in the navy. BUT McCain refused it and stuck with his men. McCain showed more integrity than many people would have in that situation.
I still don't like that guy much but I will never discredit anything he did in the war, he is a true american hero.
Hells Bells, he was offered preferential treatment from the enemy because his Dad was the highest ranking admiral in the navy. BUT McCain refused it and stuck with his men. McCain showed more integrity than many people would have in that situation.
I still don't like that guy much but I will never discredit anything he did in the war, he is a true american hero.
i wasnt trying just typing what i have heard....doenst necessarly mean that i belive it
class 1996
Progressives look at reality through the lens of Liberalism
Hells Bells, he was offered preferential treatment from the enemy because his Dad was the highest ranking admiral in the navy. BUT McCain refused it and stuck with his men. McCain showed more integrity than many people would have in that situation.
I still don't like that guy much but I will never discredit anything he did in the war, he is a true american hero.
I agree completely. McCain is very principled. I do not think all of his ideas are that great but I like the guy because he's a maverick and is not afraid of the core party leadership. Too liberal for me but I respect him. That poor bastard was tortured something terrible but stuck to the code of not taking preferential treatment or release until it was offered to others captured before him. McCain's father was the Chief Admiral of the Navy, so he was a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, there was no other Navy officer that outranked McCain's father. The North wanted to use McCain as a political pawn to gain propaganda victories for the North but McCain fought it for a longtime. He did make one statement for them on video after a rough session of torture to which he has apologized many times.
Well Bay Area Cat, you can say it is a "straw man" if you like. I don't care for Bush that much myself. But it certainly seems to me that the Left, and I think you and Remax, are probably in that category DOES hate Bush more than the Islamists that would like to put a knife to all our throats. It is thier ACTIONS that make me think that. Yes it is just opinion, but I tend to think a fairly informed one. And I have been to the Middle East and seen things over there for myself.
The Carter administration basically did NOTHING during the hostage crisis, which has emboldened Islamic terroists to this day. Again my opinion.
The Clinton administration was offered Bin Laden and refused him, but I will admit he wasn't as big of a "fish" back then. I have also heard rumors of a military project known as "Able Danger" that had basically figured out the 9/11 terrorist plot in 1999, but lawyers in the Clinton administration put the kabosh on that. I really wish I could find out more on the "Able Danger" situation, but I will again admitt is just rumor but a fairly strong one.
Both parties are to blame to a certain extent. Sandy Berger, a former Clinton official after 9/11 is caught stealing from the National Archives and Bush Administration officials go out of thier way to make sure he get lenient treatment. What I would like to know is why?
Hells Bells, he was offered preferential treatment from the enemy because his Dad was the highest ranking admiral in the navy. BUT McCain refused it and stuck with his men. McCain showed more integrity than many people would have in that situation.
I still don't like that guy much but I will never discredit anything he did in the war, he is a true american hero.
I agree completely. McCain is very principled. I do not think all of his ideas are that great but I like the guy because he's a maverick and is not afraid of the core party leadership. Too liberal for me but I respect him. That poor bastard was tortured something terrible but stuck to the code of not taking preferential treatment or release until it was offered to others captured before him. McCain's father was the Chief Admiral of the Navy, so he was a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, there was no other Navy officer that outranked McCain's father. The North wanted to use McCain as a political pawn to gain propaganda victories for the North but McCain fought it for a longtime. He did make one statement for them on video after a rough session of torture to which he has apologized many times.
Alpha and Savage are right on target here. McCain could have had it much easier but opted to take his beatings along with everybody else. I have read numerous books by McCain's fellow prisoners and to a man, they substantiate the above. All of these guys went through hell on earth and some of them for a lot of years. I don't know how they did it.
Well Bay Area Cat, you can say it is a "straw man" if you like. I don't care for Bush that much myself. But it certainly seems to me that the Left, and I think you and Remax, are probably in that category DOES hate Bush more than the Islamists that would like to put a knife to all our throats. It is thier ACTIONS that make me think that. Yes it is just opinion, but I tend to think a fairly informed one. And I have been to the Middle East and seen things over there for myself.
I can personally assure you that your words have absolutely no validity at all when you make suggestions like that about my priorities. And you may not realize this, but even suggesting what you boldly stated above is incredibly insulting.
You also probably don't realize that I voted for Bush, and that I am far from being a stereotyped liberal. I actually usually vote Republican, unless a good Libertarian is on the ballot.
And spending time in the Middle East does absolutely nothing for you in terms of understanding how people here (inside the U.S., outside of your core group of friends) think, as evidenced by your comments.
Yes, it is a straw man argument, and one helluva insulting one at that. That anyone believes something like that is a testament to their own lack of exposure to the people they are opining about.
And if you need a character witness or validation of some sort, my roommate was in Iraq in the Navy as well. So I have plenty of insight into that aspect of things.
Well I think you are also insulting by discounting my opinion the way you do. Not to mention, I think you are being more than a little arrogant. Ok, YOU, are right, and only you are right. Happy?
Quote:
And spending time in the Middle East does absolutely nothing for you in terms of understanding how people here (inside the U.S., outside of your core group of friends) think, as evidenced by your comments.
You missed the point. What I meant was I have interacted with people over there, and got some insight in what SOME of them think. And talk about insulting, you are telling me about my understanding about what other people think?
You can think what you want about a "straw man" arguement. Again I will try to be more clear. I do not THINK that many (not all) people realize the seriousness of the Islamic Terrorist situation. And in my OPINION, neither do most people on the Left in this country.
No I do not need a chararter witness. I am sorry if I offended you but it seems TO ME that you think your opinions are FACT, while discrediting those you happen to disagree with, even when you opinions cannot be proven and when the person you are debating states that his opinion is his and a result of his own experience. That is why sometimes you seem to me,as kind of arrogant. Sorry if you do not like my opinion, BAC. But it is just that my opinion, and I may know a more group of diverse and interesting people than it seems you give me credit for. I will not make judgements about the people YOU know that may make you OFFENDED. I can give my opinion on here just as much as you can, and it is worth no less than yours.
When you put words in the mouths of people you don't know (in particular, me), especially opinions as callous as "they hate Bush worse than the terrorists," then yes, I am going to call BS on your "opinions." You can't have an opinion as to what someone else's feelings are. That's not an opinion, that's an allegation.
And when you allege that I feel ways that I don't feel (particularly revolting things), and make sweeping statements about other people's opinions as well, that is indeed insulting to those people.
So yes ... I AM RIGHT as I am the only one who knows what I THINK and how I FEEL. You can't have an informed opinion on that because you don't know anything about it. That's not arrogant on my part -- that's simply me having exclusive insight into my own thoughts and feelings.
If somebody tells you that they hate Bush more than the terrorists, then you have something. Until then, your allegations of such feelings certainly have no validity.
And I may be missing something, but I am still confused as to what relevance your time in the Gulf has as to forming "opinions" as to what people think in the U.S. I think we must be talking about two completely different things. You definitely would have good insight into the people who lived in the Gulf area, and insights of what people in the Navy thought, but you can't be saying that your time over there gave you relevant insight into what the "left" (or anybody not in the Navy or living in the Gulf area, for that matter) in this country thought and felt.
I take the terrorist threat very seriously, and when your post appears (and I haven't heard anything to rescind or clarify it yet) to say, point blank, that you think that I hate Bush more than terrorists, I get a little put-off. It's simply a silly and uninformed assertion.
NavyBlue: Just so we are clear -- you do realize that your post states that I (and Re/Max) hate Bush more than terrorists, right? This would also suggest that we're morons and incredibly ignorant of the world around us. If this was not your intent, and if your post simply had a typo or was just poorly worded, then this whole exchange has been a misunderstanding.
However, if you did intend to put those words into my mouth, then we have more to discuss.
Please let me now which of the two alternatives above is correct.
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class 1996
