Why are other Big Sky teams getting better QBs than us?

by **GrizzlyEdd** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:20 am

and.... deep breath..... CB is the "least" capable QB the Griz have had since before the Grady Bennett days... that is almost 20yrs... :lame:

by **bigtyme** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:15 am

Grizzly Edd, your signature says it all. Go with that! If you are talking starting QBs, you might have something worth arguing, however, CB is not the least capable griz qb since Grady. In fact, I think he throws a better ball and is a better qb skillwise than John Edwards. Edwards had a lot more than just talent though. Cole is a decent quarterback that has shown what he is capable on the field. A year of Craig rather than just a couple of weeks will do all the qbs wonders.

by **UMAlum** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:16 am

GrizzlyEdd wrote:and.... deep breath..... CB is the "least" capable QB the Griz have had since before the Grady Bennett days... that is almost 20yrs...

With all due respect GrizzlyEdd, I disagree. CB is on a par with John Edwards. They have similar styles and can run when needed. I remember many posters that considered the Joe Glenn offense boring. A lot of folks have forgetten what Yo did for our teams back then.

I believe we will see even more of an emphasis on passing this coming year then in the recent past. This will be due to CB's experience along with an experienced Oline. Without Lex CB will need to take on the leader role ... as in the will have to make it happen guy ... IMO.

by **WILD_CAT** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:41 am

LakeGriz wrote:Why aren't the Griz able to get stud HS qbs? That's how I understand this thread.

1. Our unexciting, baffling, unproductive offense, and who really does run it?

2. Our propensity to go get drop-down qbs.

Modern-era history (starts w/DD)

DD, starter 93-95, recruited out of HS by Read. (NC, 95)
Ahyat, starter 96-98, recruited out of HS by Read.

Then what?
99-00, DROP DOWN Drew MIller, from BYU, by Mick
99-02, John Edwards, recruited out of HS by Mick (NC, 01)
99---, Nick Walker, recruited out of HS by Mick, and transferred to Dickinson State (and had a good career there) when he read the writing on the wall.

01-02, DROP DOWN, Brandon Neill, from Wyo, by Joe
didn't get a smell in '02 loss to MSU when Edwards couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

2003:
DROP DOWN, Ochs, Colorado, Joe's or BH's?
TR from JC, Jeff Disney (redshirted under Joe?)
HS recruit, Justin Hartman, by Joe, grey shirt
HS recruit, Kyle Samson, by BH?
(IN 9-4 season, Ochs (132 pass efficiency) was in 9 games, Disney (106 effic) 6, Hartman (121 effic) 5, and Samson (-6.24 effic) 10.
After the season, Samson would go to Northern with his dad, and Hartman disappeared to reappear at Western)

2004, Ochs and Disney.
Somewhere in here, Andrew Selle's older brother, who was recruited out of Billings West, gives up and TR to Carroll without ever throwing a pass, I think.

2005:
DROP-DOWN, Jason Washington from Miami Ohio or whereever.
HS recruit, pure frosh, Bergquist by BH

2006:
DROP-DOWN, Swogger, from Wash State
Bergquist, sophomore, 9 games
HS recruit, Clint Stapp from Colo, throws 6 passes all year., , and holds on kicks

2007:
Berguist, junior
HS recruit, Andrew Selle, freshman, 22 passes
HS recruit, Jeff Larson, greyshirt, 6 passes
Stapp, sophomore, ZERO passes, holds on kicks.
HOW long do you think this hot-shot recruit will continue to stay with two seasons of eligibility and nothing on offense?

Do you see a pattern here w/BH?

03-- Ochs and Disney
04-- Ochs and Disney
05-- Washington
06-- Swogger
07-- nil

If you were a Stud HS qb, why would you take a UM offer when four of the five seasons have gone to drop downs?

FACT IS:

Both national championships have been won by Montana HS products who were recruited out of HS.

Ochs almost broke the mold in 2004.
Edwards almost saved Miller's arse in 2000.
Ahyat ran into Randy Moss.

Wow, very good point after looking at that history. Good research. I was amazed myself that Larson didn't go to MSU as he would probably be the starter this year. I agree though that Hauck has really turned from using the young recruits to filling skill spots with transfers (like it or not).

by **minot11** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:04 am

PlayerRep wrote:Yes, I see a pattern. Minot makes up his "facts", and certain other posters don't know what they're talking about. This is a continuing and disturbing pattern.

Kramer Hagen was ranked 311th by this website. http://www.stephenshimko.org/stephen-sh ... 070716.php

Hagen committed in August after getting his first offer. http://recruiting.scout.com/2/666731.html

Bergquist was second team all-conference this year, and had a completion percentage of about 62%. All this in a terrible offense, where no qb other than Craig Ochs in his second year can possibly succeed.

Greenie, your supposed "facts" are a crock, and you know it. Your agenda is obvious, and it is weak. Who in the hell is "StephenShimko" anyway? He is a nobody in recruiting circles. My info comes from Rival.com, the nations premier recruting website. You will go to no end to "correct" other posters in your eternal mission to make your boy look good. Too bad the rest of us do not know the right people like you do.

Personally, I think it is a joke that you, who is not even a UM alum, would waste your life trying to be a big fish in a little pond.

Here is the Rivals like to Hagen. Just take Greenie for what he is. A sugar coater.

footballrecruiting.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=54906

by **getgrizzy** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:10 am

i like that we get players to come here and keep them away from our opposition. having players like larson, selle, hartman, disney, neill, walker come here and then have their request to go to another big sky team blocked is a good move. cold blooded, but good. do you want them sitting the bench here or lighting us up there? we're like the ny yankees this way.

had selle or larson gone to msu, msu wouldn't have taken rassmusen and selle or larson probably be the starter their this coming year. instead they're here and one will probably start next year, but at least the other won't be playing at msu and that's a good thing. stapp (isn't he from cali?) could be starting for sac state next year, actually he probably could've started there this year. or at cal poly. or at uc davis. both are on our schedule this year, but stapp isn't on their roster.

by **Downwiththefoe** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:04 pm

Clint Stapp is from Colorado:

Interesting comments from a Missoulian article announcing his verbal....what would he say today? What would a recruit say today about the Montana System (My original point lost in the SGF slam session)

Stapp completed 126 of his 249 passes for 2,198 yards this season, according to the Boulder Daily Camera. He threw for 25 touchdowns against six interceptions, and led Niwot to the Class 3A state semifinals. Niwot has 1,162 students, and sits in Colorado's third-highest classification.

Stapp is another Boulder County product, like Craig Ochs (Fairview), who threw for 3,807 yards as a Griz senior last fall.

"That definitely made it an attractive place," Stapp said. "They run a lot of shotgun. They like to roll out, throw the ball a lot. They can do a lot of things. It's a very versatile offense. The offense is perfect."

Stapp chose Montana over Drake and San Diego, and apparently had no interest in going to Holy Cross, where his brother Brion played QB.

"I didn't really want to go back East," Clint Stapp told the Daily Camera. "It was an easy decision. You can't pass up an opportunity to play for a national championship."

Nothing against Stapp..but Montana was his only real offer- the other "Offers" as I recall were non-scholarship schools.

I believe Cole was a similar type signing for the Griz, wasn't he?...Larson (who I think is a Great kid, and a lot of great playmaker instincts) was a Grey shirt and Selle was only being recruited by the cats.

by **billings_poke** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:31 pm

Downwiththefoe wrote:I believe Cole was a similar type signing for the Griz, wasn't he?...Larson (who I think is a Great kid, and a lot of great playmaker instincts) was a Grey shirt and Selle was only being recruited by the cats.

Actually Selle may have had an offer from Wyo. I know they were talking to him and he thought about going there

by **TheBud** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:32 pm

minot11 wrote:Greenie, your supposed "facts" are a crock, and you know it. Your agenda is obvious, and it is weak. Who in the hell is "StephenShimko" anyway? He is a nobody in recruiting circles. My info comes from Rival.com, the nations premier recruting website. You will go to no end to "correct" other posters in your eternal mission to make your boy look good. Too bad the rest of us do not know the right people like you do.

Personally, I think it is a joke that you, who is not even a UM alum, would waste your life trying to be a big fish in a little pond.

Here is the Rivals like to Hagen. Just take Greenie for what he is. A sugar coater.

Well, I see that SGF is back...

by **PlayerRep** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:36 pm

Minot, I see that your Rivals link above doesn't give Kramer Hagen a ranking. Did you have the right link? Please tell us where his ranking is.

by **AllWeatherFan** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:17 pm

Arizona, Seattle, Minot...the dude gets around!

by **Dexter X** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:39 pm

Bergquist - 2 Stars by Scout.com, #80 QB.
http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=695082

Selle - 2 Stars by Scout.com.
http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p= ... id=1972607

Just thought I'd add those links incase anyone was wondering.

by **Downwiththefoe** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:57 pm

Dexter X wrote:Bergquist - 2 Stars by Scout.com, #80 QB.
http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=695082

Selle - 2 Stars by Scout.com.
http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p= ... id=1972607

Just thought I'd add those links incase anyone was wondering.

Soooooo...... none of our QB's had any D-I offers besides Montana or MSU. I thought that was the case.

What were we talking about again?

:laugh:

by **hardycreek1** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:59 pm

I'd like to see a MT QB if we have one that can take us to the NC.

Sells throws a nice spiral & is intelligent & reads the plays. Actually the same could be said of Berquist. Add to the mix that CB can run.

by **Dexter X** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:05 pm

Downwiththefoe wrote:
Dexter X wrote:Bergquist - 2 Stars by Scout.com, #80 QB.
http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=695082

Selle - 2 Stars by Scout.com.
http://recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p= ... id=1972607

Just thought I'd add those links incase anyone was wondering.

Soooooo...... none of our QB's had any D-I offers besides Montana or MSU. I thought that was the case.

What were we talking about again?

Well we were talking about "stars" next to players names on recruiting sites...but we can talk about other offers too I guess. I just posted those two links incase anyone was wondering what Bergquist and Selle were rated.

LakeGriz - I had a question about your post... You said Edwards almost saved Miller's ass in 2000. How so? Just curious...

Miller was one of the best QBs the Griz have ever had, and that year (2000) the Griz made it to the NC game which is pretty damn good in my opinion. Miller also still is listed several times in the NCAA record books for FCS (Yards per game in a career, #4 all time in Career efficiency rating, etc etc). Anyway, not trying to start an argument... I was just curious what you meant by that comment

by **IntuitiveGriz** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:30 pm

Bronco wrote:Even the most simple plays are designed to score a TD. If one or more players miss their assignment it breaks down and the play is stopped.
It's always the players not the plays.

Wonder how the Bears would have done with a good QB last year.

Green Bay in the 60's had very simple plays with great players. Everyone knew they were going to see the Green Bay sweep and they couldn't stop it.

Chuck Knoll when he had a dozen players going to the hall of fame was proclaimed a genius. After they left he never won a championship again...Same plays

We had a 12 year run of exceptional QB's..until we get one again expect the same outcome.

Bears defense got them a winning season but they ran into an exceptional QB in the super Bowl and they lost.

Not the plays...always the players. The Wooford coach was quoted as saying the same thing in his pregame talk to his team.

I think it was our QB that missed two TD's on throws in the playoff game. Just needed one of those plays to win the game.

Quit Bronco, you are making tooooo much sense!!!

I agree. In fact, I've never met a coach who ever blocked, tackled ran, threw, or caught in a game he's EVER coached. :laugh:

You won't find too many coaches missing their blocking assignment. I've been saying this forever, but some of the cavemen on here are incapable of reason.

by **Downwiththefoe** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:45 pm

I'll return to doing whatever it is us Cavemen like to do...Some of the members of the board have got it all figured out, and that there are actually no issues at all....

no need to stir the pot I guess. :laugh:

Spiderpig.... Spiderpig..... does whatever a Spiderpig does.

Can he swing from a web? No, he can't. He's a pig. Watch out!..... It's Spiderpig!

by **grizpack** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:28 pm

I am pretty sure that Selle had an offer from Wyoming.

by **zirge** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:18 pm

bigtyme wrote:Grizzly Edd, your signature says it all. Go with that! If you are talking starting QBs, you might have something worth arguing, however, CB is not the least capable griz qb since Grady. In fact, I think he throws a better ball and is a better qb skillwise than John Edwards. Edwards had a lot more than just talent though. Cole is a decent quarterback that has shown what he is capable on the field. A year of Craig rather than just a couple of weeks will do all the qbs wonders.

I think Cole was a better QB last year than he was this year. I don't know if it was his doing or not but something changed.
He looked more sure of his own mental game plan and it showed in his throwing, pass selections and his runs.
This year he looked like he was not as sure of his game plan and it showed up in his hesitation to pick the open receiver and his underthrown passes to receivers that were wide open.
I agree that Cole is a good QB and has the goods to prove it. I was high on speculation this year and said so on egriz that he would excel over last year.
To me from my observation from section 233 I saw what has been discussed at length on egriz
i.e. predictability of play calling (advantage to the opposing team)
" produced more pressure on Cole (advantage to the opposing team)
O-line not holding the pressure (advantage to the opposing team)
pass routes not fully develop due to the pressure(advantage to the opposing team)

Predictability hurt us the most because the opposing coaches could counter much easier when they knew what to expect.
Hence defensive pressure which made Cole and O-line look not as good as we hoped and did not allow more bigger targets for Cole to hit downfield in the open.

by **AllWeatherFan** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:01 pm

Swogger was the quarterback last year.

by **LakeGriz** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:09 pm

How did John Edwards almost save DM's arse, DexX asks.

National Chamionship game in rain and slop at Chatty in 2000, vs GaSouthern with Adrian Peterson.

Lots of people look at games started and games won to measure QBs. Drew Miller started, and got hurt, in second quarter I think it was, and by halftime (or shortly before) UM was down 20-3.

Edwards got some life in the O, and with help of a Vince Huntsberger run with a fake punt (he fumbled the snap) that he ran 60-some yards for a touchdown, the Griz were able to take the lead 23-20 late in the game.

ON GS's ensuing possession, for the only time since the first half, the Griz D broke down for just one play, and Peterson went nearly 60 yards for the TD that put GS up 27-23. Later, the Griz stopped GS, and the Eagles, rather than risking a bad snap, a punt block or a rotten punt in the rain and slop, took a safety, betting that UM probably wouldn't be able to kick a FG in the rotten conditions, so it was 27-25.

On the last possession, Edwards threw down the sideline to Farris, who was BEHIND the GS defense. It was just a few inches beyond his reach, otherwise it would have been 31-27 with UM trying to decide what to do on the EP try.

Had Farris caught the pass, and UM wins the national championship under Edwards' leadership, Miller would have gotten credit for being the winning QB in the start... instead, he's the starter in a NC loss.

That's how Edwards almost saved Miller's arse (while picking up a NC).

Didn't say anything about Peterson's questionable fumble into the end zone for the first TD of game, nor about how well UM D adjusted after being burned big time on about 3 option plays.

by **Downwiththefoe** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:03 pm

AllWeatherFan wrote:Swogger was the quarterback last year.

He must have meant to say...In the one game he (Cole) started against SDSU and the couple series he played spelling Swogger.

Not really enought to make that evaluation... :twocents:

Cole can make every throw on the field (and then some...seriously) any given game...but will he? It's his turn and I really really hope to hell they let him shine. A 5th Year Senior worth weight salt usually will.

Time will tell...the offense should not be the reason for the Griz to lose any games next year, based on talent.

Play calling, management, chemistry....well, that remains to be seen.

Go Griz

by **RobGriz** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:14 pm

kemajic wrote:
RobGriz wrote:The truth is that we could get or possibly already have the next DD or Drew Miller and it wouldn't matter. With the current way the offense is run the poor kid will never get a chance to prove he is worthy of being compared to any of the former great QB's the Griz have had. And I don't believe we will have any QB's in the running for the Payton award until there is a significant change made to how our offense is run.

I don't buy this. The scheme and BH's conservatism may not be supportive, but it does not preclude the QB from making plays. Ochs navigated around it. DD or Miller would have had no problem running their offensive approach out of this scheme. The good ones take the scheme and use it to do what they believe will win. And they will make the plays when the opportunity is there. We haven't seen this lately.

I don't care what you buy. When the highly complicated offense the Griz run is hand off on first, hand off on second, pass on third and long, cause the other teams d coordinator (and everyone in the stands for that matter) is smart enough to know what you were going to do on first and second and called the right defenses, I really don't think there is much of a "scheme". My 7 year old daughter could come up with a better "scheme". Scheme my ass, dream maybe. Now if the QB will step up and audible at the line like Ochs or Miller or DD would or if he is even allowed too do that then yes I would agree with what you are saying. But I stick by my original statement, no QB that wants to throw the ball would take one look at last years O and want to come here and run it. And I have met damn few QBs that don't want to throw the ball. 0, none, zilch, nada...

by **PlayerRep** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:18 pm

LakeGriz, Edwards played well in the 2000 game, but he hardly saved Miller's bacon. In fact, some think UM would have won if Miller hadn't been injured.

According to articles I just looked at, Miller was hurt in the first quarter. GS scored early on a fumble recovery in the endzone, and on a pass with about 2:30 to go in the first quarter. I don't know if Miller was hurt before or after that score. Thus, UM was either down 0-7 or 0-13 or 3-13 when Miller was hurt. Miller was about 5-9 for 65 yards.

In the second half, Edwards led one scoring drive late in the third quarter, then Huntsberger had a 65 yard fake punt for a score, and then UM scored after DeCoite forced a fumble at the GS 18.

Edwards played well, but it looks like you got your facts a bit wrong. I'm sure Dex can give us the definitive word, if he is so inclined.

For you offense lovers, UM had 487 yards of offense (to GS' 390), but obviously lost the game.

by **Hammer** on Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:29 pm

PlayerRep wrote:For you offense lovers, UM had 487 yards of offense (to GS' 390), but obviously lost the game.

For you stat lovers, they don't always tell the whole story!

Why are other Big Sky teams getting better QBs than us?

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