Why are other Big Sky teams getting better QBs than us?

by **getgrizzy** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:14 am

Downwiththefoe wrote:Clint Stapp is from Colorado:

Interesting comments from a Missoulian article announcing his verbal....what would he say today? What would a recruit say today about the Montana System (My original point lost in the SGF slam session)

Stapp completed 126 of his 249 passes for 2,198 yards this season, according to the Boulder Daily Camera. He threw for 25 touchdowns against six interceptions, and led Niwot to the Class 3A state semifinals. Niwot has 1,162 students, and sits in Colorado's third-highest classification.

Stapp is another Boulder County product, like Craig Ochs (Fairview), who threw for 3,807 yards as a Griz senior last fall.

"That definitely made it an attractive place," Stapp said. "They run a lot of shotgun. They like to roll out, throw the ball a lot. They can do a lot of things. It's a very versatile offense. The offense is perfect."

Stapp chose Montana over Drake and San Diego, and apparently had no interest in going to Holy Cross, where his brother Brion played QB.

"I didn't really want to go back East," Clint Stapp told the Daily Camera. "It was an easy decision. You can't pass up an opportunity to play for a national championship."

Nothing against Stapp..but Montana was his only real offer- the other "Offers" as I recall were non-scholarship schools.

I believe Cole was a similar type signing for the Griz, wasn't he?...Larson (who I think is a Great kid, and a lot of great playmaker instincts) was a Grey shirt and Selle was only being recruited by the cats.

good research. i don't recall this, but it's always interesting to see what players say about the school and then see what the reality is. we not only don't run that type of offense, but he probably won't be the starting qb here. next year it'll be cole and the year after stapp will be a senior competing with selle and larson, who will be juniors. so i'd think the coaches would prefer selle or larson unless stapp is decidedly better. then either selle or larson is out of the mix. just the way it goes.

by **Re/MaxGriz** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:42 am

LakeGriz wrote:Why aren't the Griz able to get stud HS qbs? That's how I understand this thread.

1. Our unexciting, baffling, unproductive offense, and who really does run it?

2. Our propensity to go get drop-down qbs.

Modern-era history (starts w/DD)

DD, starter 93-95, recruited out of HS by Read. (NC, 95)
Ahyat, starter 96-98, recruited out of HS by Read.

Then what?
99-00, DROP DOWN Drew MIller, from BYU, by Mick
99-02, John Edwards, recruited out of HS by Mick (NC, 01)
99---, Nick Walker, recruited out of HS by Mick, and transferred to Dickinson State (and had a good career there) when he read the writing on the wall.

01-02, DROP DOWN, Brandon Neill, from Wyo, by Joe
didn't get a smell in '02 loss to MSU when Edwards couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

2003:
DROP DOWN, Ochs, Colorado, Joe's or BH's?
TR from JC, Jeff Disney (redshirted under Joe?)
HS recruit, Justin Hartman, by Joe, grey shirt
HS recruit, Kyle Samson, by BH?
(IN 9-4 season, Ochs (132 pass efficiency) was in 9 games, Disney (106 effic) 6, Hartman (121 effic) 5, and Samson (-6.24 effic) 10.
After the season, Samson would go to Northern with his dad, and Hartman disappeared to reappear at Western)

2004, Ochs and Disney.
Somewhere in here, Andrew Selle's older brother, who was recruited out of Billings West, gives up and TR to Carroll without ever throwing a pass, I think.

2005:
DROP-DOWN, Jason Washington from Miami Ohio or whereever.
HS recruit, pure frosh, Bergquist by BH

2006:
DROP-DOWN, Swogger, from Wash State
Bergquist, sophomore, 9 games
HS recruit, Clint Stapp from Colo, throws 6 passes all year., , and holds on kicks

2007:
Berguist, junior
HS recruit, Andrew Selle, freshman, 22 passes
HS recruit, Jeff Larson, greyshirt, 6 passes
Stapp, sophomore, ZERO passes, holds on kicks.
HOW long do you think this hot-shot recruit will continue to stay with two seasons of eligibility and nothing on offense?

Do you see a pattern here w/BH?

03-- Ochs and Disney
04-- Ochs and Disney
05-- Washington
06-- Swogger
07-- nil

If you were a Stud HS qb, why would you take a UM offer when four of the five seasons have gone to drop downs?

FACT IS:

Both national championships have been won by Montana HS products who were recruited out of HS.

Ochs almost broke the mold in 2004.
Edwards almost saved Miller's arse in 2000.
Ahyat ran into Randy Moss.

See, the one wrench thrown into this mix here is Justin Hartmann. Per your list he grey shirted in 2003 and inbetween the '03 and '04 seasons he left the team. Hartmann was viewed as the guy to take over after Ochs/Disney were gone. Apparently he wanted to take over sooner (and I think he grey shirted in 2002 & played in 2003). So in 2005 (junior) and 2006 (senior) he would've been the projected starter, if he would've stayed around.

The list would've looked then like:

2003: Ochs/Disney
2004: Ochs/Disney
2005: Hartmann
2006: Hartmann
2007: Bergquist
2008: presumably Bergquist or maybe Selle

So then from 2003 - 2007 you'd have 3 of the 5 years with HS recruits and if 2008 pans out as expected you'd have 4 of the 6 years with HS recruits.

It didn't happen that way, but to ignore that Hartmann walked out on the team when he had two years of being the starting QB ahead of him changes this argument. If Hartmann lived up to the potential that many scrimmage/practice rats saw he would've have been a very good QB in this system, and if he would have succeeded then the picture of drop-downs vs HS recruits would have been very different.

by **grizindabox** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:58 am

Remax, except for the point that I do not think Hartman was anywhere near good enough to start at UM.

by **'68griz** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:21 pm

My belief is that Hartman left because he saw the writing on the wall and realized he was NOT going to be the starting QB.

by **Re/MaxGriz** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:39 pm

Ifs and buts...

It's impossible to say, I recall seeing him in scrimmages and looking like a pocket-passer that could really mature into a good QB. He was the starting QB that beat Idaho in 2003. I think the potential really was there, but we'll never know.

As for Hartmann seeing the writing on the wall, I'd doubt that, Ochs and Dis were both seniors in 2004 and Washington didn't announce he was coming to the UM until mid-spring in 2005 as I recall. Justin was primed to be the heir and left the team in 2004 which probably required the coaches to look for a drop down b/c the only other option at the time was a RS frosh in Cole Bergquist - who wound up with the job after JW went down with that bad shoulder.

by **Dexter X** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:05 pm

PlayerRep wrote:LakeGriz:

Fact is that Miller was hurt in the first quarter, and didn't play much that game.

Fact is that UM was not down 3-20 when Miller was in the game.

Fact is that your premise, i.e. that Edwards almost saved Miller's bacon, was not correct.

Fact is that at least one other person agrees with me that UM would have won with Miller.

I think Edwards was a very good QB, and we were lucky to have him here at the U of M, but I also think that had the Griz would've probably won if Miller stayed in that game. Miller was a great QB, and I doubt GSU would've been able to hold him under 300 yards and a couple more scores. That definitely was an exciting game to watch though.

Just did some digging on the Missoulian site (their articles go back quite a ways), and Miller was hurt in the 1st quarter like you said.

The Griz were down 3-20 at halftime, but when Miller got hurt the score wasn't 3-20, it was at most 3-13 (which was the score at the end of the 1st quarter). I found the box score for the game, but no play by play, so not sure how late into the 1st quarter he got hurt.

by **dorringtonben** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:48 pm

If your options to throw to were Bagley and Allen would you want to come to Montana. How about getting someboday with speed and that can actually catch the ball and then we can talk quarterback.

by **minot11** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:07 pm

dorringtonben wrote:If your options to throw to were Bagley and Allen would you want to come to Montana. How about getting someboday with speed and that can actually catch the ball and then we can talk quarterback.

Good point

by **PlayerRep** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:55 pm

Allen has already signed with an agent, and is working out for professional contracts. Why would it be a problem throwing to him?

Bagley may get a professional tryout, I am told.

Ferriter is 4.55. Mariani was 4.49 in the spring. Schulte is in the higher 4.5's now, but ran a 4.49 at a camp while in high school and when he was lighter. Ferriter is quick, if not fast. Palmer appears to be fairly fast. Chambers had some speed. The kid redshirting, Brown I believe, is apparently very fast. Allen and Bagley were 4.6, or early 4.6ers.

It's amusing how minot continues to complain about things that don't deserve complaint, and also makes up virtually all of his facts. Too funny. Like someone said, he has no credibility.

The important point with Hartman is that the Hauck coaches were told by the Glenn coaches that he was good and good enough to start, so Hauck didn't recruit a qb in his first recruiting season.

by **Grizbacker1** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:55 pm

grizindabox wrote:Remax, except for the point that I do not think Hartman was anywhere near good enough to start at UM.

Agreed.

by **MrTitleist** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:08 pm

PlayerRep wrote:Allen has already signed with an agent, and is working out for professional contracts. Why would it be a problem throwing to him?

Gonna be tough for Allen to find work if he rediscovers his case of the dropsies that plagued him a lot the last couple years.

Bagley could land in a camp somewhere as long as his arm heals okay. He'd be a possession type of receiver, definitely not a down the field guy.

by **Grizbacker1** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:13 pm

MrTitleist wrote:
PlayerRep wrote:Allen has already signed with an agent, and is working out for professional contracts. Why would it be a problem throwing to him?

Gonna be tough for Allen to find work if he rediscovers his case of the dropsies that plagued him a lot the last couple years.

Bagley could land in a camp somewhere as long as his arm heals okay. He'd be a possession type of receiver, definitely not a down the field guy.

Not trying to be negative, but I don't think either of them will ever play a down in the NFL. :twocents:

by **Hammer** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:35 pm

PlayerRep wrote:Allen has already signed with an agent, and is working out for professional contracts. Why would it be a problem throwing to him?

Bagley may get a professional tryout, I am told.

If Jimmy Farris had a hard time making it in the NFL, then these two have no shot. :twocents:

by **kemajic** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:45 pm

Hammer wrote:
PlayerRep wrote:Allen has already signed with an agent, and is working out for professional contracts. Why would it be a problem throwing to him?

Bagley may get a professional tryout, I am told.

If Jimmy Farris had a hard time making it in the NFL, then these two have no shot.

Or Joe Douglas or Etu; I agree.

by **Grizfan92** on Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:46 pm

Please folks, quit referring to Phin's offense as "complex"..that is such an undeserved and inaccurate adjective to throw at a lemon of an O. How many of us could guess the play as the griz lined up at the Line? How many times? If we could, do you think D coordinators who have been in theg ame for 30 years can see trends?

Calling his O complex makes it sound at least to the sublime a bit sexy and gives it a "wow-factor"......lets think back to the last few seasons......sexy? wowfactor? No way....so please, no more calling a lemon something other than what it is - a piece of @#$@# lemon of a system!

by **grizindabox** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:16 am

I think that when people call the offense complex, it is primarily the passing attack they are referring to.

by **RobGriz** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:35 am

Grizfan92 wrote:Please folks, quit referring to Phin's offense as "complex"..that is such an undeserved and inaccurate adjective to throw at a lemon of an O. How many of us could guess the play as the griz lined up at the Line? How many times? If we could, do you think D coordinators who have been in theg ame for 30 years can see trends?

Calling his O complex makes it sound at least to the sublime a bit sexy and gives it a "wow-factor"......lets think back to the last few seasons......sexy? wowfactor? No way....so please, no more calling a lemon something other than what it is - a piece of @#$@# lemon of a system!

Evidently it must be pretty complex, cause from all appearances Phen doesn't even understand it. :dance:

Sorry I couldn't resist

by **jtgriz** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:36 am

Downwiththefoe wrote:
Bronco wrote:
LakeGriz wrote:And some also think the Griz WOULD HAVE beat Wofford IF ...

... they had made ANY points off two turnovers on Wofford's first two possessions...

... they had run the ball in the second half the way they ran it in the first half...

... CB had hit open receivers in the end zone on two occasions...

... On third and goal at the one a lineman doesn't jump so we wind up settling for a field goal...

... the job had been taken care of so it didn't have to come down to a field goal try.

Sounds like players not plays

Bronco..c'mon.

I will agree with you to a degree, but that defensive scheme and lack of adjustment cost us that game. Wofford (Carroll - Southern) should have never been in the game.

C'mon DWTF. Wofford is averaging over 37 points coming in and we hold them to 23. I again rewatched this game last night. Dropped passes, missed wide open receivers, penalties, MISSED TACKLES - especially in the second half, running backs not hitting the hole hard...Could the coaches of called a better game, without question - that's always the case.

WE LOST and got beat by a better team on that given day, just like against UMASS last year. Shit Happens.

by **grizindabox** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:50 am

I want to play this game too. The Griz defense was only giving up an average of 14 points per game going into the playoffs, and Wofford scored 23, 9 over the average. Missed tackled because of a poor defensive gameplan was a factor. If the game plan was even close to effective, the defense would have held Wofford close to the season average.

See, I can find numbers to support my viewpoint also.

I am not picking on the defense, because the offense was it usual bad, just the defense had an off day, mostly because they were never prepared correctly, and hence not in the correct places to defend Wofford.

by **PlayerRep** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:18 am

Grizindabox, what's your evidence or specifics on why the UM defensive gameplan was poor? I assume you don't have any evidence or specifics, but thought I'd ask anyway.

by **Big One 25** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:54 am

Re/MaxGriz wrote:It didn't happen that way, but to ignore that Hartmann walked out on the team when he had two years of being the starting QB ahead of him changes this argument. If Hartmann lived up to the potential that many scrimmage/practice rats saw he would've have been a very good QB in this system, and if he would have succeeded then the picture of drop-downs vs HS recruits would have been very different.

I heard that Hartman was really one of the best ever at the 8 yards deep slow developing hand off with 8 guys in the box. What a shame.

by **Grisly Fan** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:10 am

Yeah but could he duck and scramble long enough to allow the 25 yard patterns to open up?

by **grizindabox** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:24 pm

playerrep, how about 60 carries for 333 yards. Also, along with everyone, I witnessed a Wofford QB that never had a defensive guy in his grill, and repeated Wofford attacks of the outside of the Griz defense. Griz players made many plays with athletic ability, but did not make enough plays due to no one being taught to be in the right positions, forcing the qb to make a decision and keeping the plays to the inside, etc. Anyone that can say that the defensive gameplan was good, did not watch the game.

by **Grizbacker1** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:27 pm

grizindabox wrote:playerrep, how about 60 carries for 333 yards. Also, along with everyone, I witnessed a Wofford QB that never had a defensive guy in his grill, and repeated Wofford attacks of the outside of the Griz defense. Griz players made many plays with athletic ability, but did not make enough plays due to no one being taught to be in the right positions, forcing the qb to make a decision and keeping the plays to the inside, etc. Anyone that can say that the defensive gameplan was good, did not watch the game.

I am glad someone posted that again. I am tired of hearing what a great D the Griz had. I will take a Mike Breske D over KP any day of the week. Colt Anderson showed what a little agressive play could do. The Griz defensive gameplan resulted in a 5 yard gain before any contact was made between the D and the ball carrier. :twocents:

by **Big One 25** on Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:21 pm

Grizbacker1 wrote:
grizindabox wrote:playerrep, how about 60 carries for 333 yards. Also, along with everyone, I witnessed a Wofford QB that never had a defensive guy in his grill, and repeated Wofford attacks of the outside of the Griz defense. Griz players made many plays with athletic ability, but did not make enough plays due to no one being taught to be in the right positions, forcing the qb to make a decision and keeping the plays to the inside, etc. Anyone that can say that the defensive gameplan was good, did not watch the game.

I am glad someone posted that again. I am tired of hearing what a great D the Griz had. I will take a Mike Breske D over KP any day of the week. Colt Anderson showed what a little agressive play could do. The Griz defensive gameplan resulted in a 5 yard gain before any contact was made between the D and the ball carrier.

I would like to thank the both of you for putting that taste of vomit back in my mouth. The gameplan we had in that game was sickening.

Why are other Big Sky teams getting better QBs than us?

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