Just wanted to hear everyone's opinion on 3 man crews vs. 2 man crews...

I've found that high school basketball isn't as fun to watch...there doesn't seem to be any flow to the games. I know that with 2 man crews some games could get physical, but I miss the old days. To me, 3 man crews are ruining high school basketball. And with the ref shortage in the Bozeman area especially, doesn't it make sense to go back to 2 man crews.

JMO

I have seen quite a few high school basketball games this year, and I don't remember ever seeing a 3 man crew, from Class AA to B.

"ruining hs bb"?

If it weren't for whiny-ass fans, there wouldn't be a shortage.

My opinion, FWIW: Two more eyes can't hurt.





P.S. I not a bb official, nor to I pretend to be one in the stands.

EDIT: The local AA teams use them here (intra-city games). I think most State tourneys, nowadays, are three man crews, too.

Well, I'm not a whiny-ass fan either...and the game of basketball has had whiny-ass fans since as long as I can remember - fans will be fans - but for whatever the reason...In my opinion it has more to do with the older more experienced refs calling it a career and we aren't getting as many young, good officials coming into the ranks.

I've coached the last 4 years in Class B and now this year in Class C and for the past 3 years more games have been officiated by 3 man crews than two man crews - all the tournaments are now 3 man crews...and I have many officials who are friends and they say they do 80 percent 3 man crews, so I don't know what games you are watching. Now, granted that percentage has dropped this year, as a result of the low number of officials.

I have had this discussion with coaches, fans, administrators, athletic directors and officials. Two more eyes does hurt in my opinion...this year we have had three games where over 50 fouls have been called...50!!! Now you will say well then you need to coach better defense - an easy cop-out - how bout the officials make the calls that matter and let the student-athletes play...we are not here to watch officials, although some look really good with there slicked back hair and their amazing mechanics, but when it comes to judgement, well they lack. Calling a foul 30 feet away from the basket when neither the offense or defense gains an advantage??? What does that do, but take the offense out of their rhythm and give the defense another foul.

Are high school kids fouling more today than in past years, possibly...more pressure defenses will create more fouls. But my question is this...Is it better to have to more eyes with 15 more foul calls or 4 eyes with 35 - 40 foul calls and a smoother game? Maybe i'm way off on this, I don't know...

Thanks for the input

Well, I didn't mean to touch a nerve.

I umped Legion Baseball for umpteen years. More so than not, the umpires I worked w/ did BB and FB. And I agree w/ you about older guys calling it a career, hence the drop in the number of officials.

But, IMHO, the reason for the drop in official numbers is because the "old" guys don't give a flying phuck about the younger guys coming in. The young guys do their JH and JV games and the older guys, for the most part, don't teach these guys or pay much attention to the young guys. I've seen it in baseball so I'm sure it happens in the other sports, as well.

Before I moved to Billings, I had worked a many tourneys and a Legion Regional. But once I got here, I lived at Pertz Field (the "A" field in Billings), never to see Cobb Field. The "older" guys worked every game there and I had to "put in my time" before I got to work there. I stayed w/ it because I loved the game. Eventually, I became assistant UIC (umpire in chief), and the UIC and I made it a point for the new guys coming in to get to work a game or two at Cobb. Albeit a non-conference game, but they got to work at Cobb. We also would go watch them work the "A" games and give them pointers after the game. They were willing to learn and take constructive critisism. Enough of me patting myself on my back.

I was asked, for years, to join the FB pool here in Billings. About five years ago, I decided to do it. I went to the first meeting and walked out 1/2 way thru it. I wasn't going to go thru that again. Too much politics for me.

Sorry for the rants, back on topic!

I've only been to a handful of games around Billings. "AA" and "A" and the only time I've seen a 3-man crew is intra-city "AA" games. Just last year I went to a Senior-Central game and they had a 2 man crew. So maybe in your area there are more officials than Billings and they can put three on the court. You asked, "So I don't know what games you are watching". Let's just say, "Not many"! I'm friends w/ the BB scheduler for the Billings pool. He said it's a biotch w/ the shortage.

There are three pools in Billings (Billings, Huntley & Laurel). I know they go from Miles City to Reed Point and from Roundup to Northern WY (Sheridan, Powell & Cody). Also, the "big boys" do Frontier games, MSU-B games and Juco games, so yes, there probably is a shortage here!!!

Now, back to the 50 fouls a game...THATS ABSURD! LET THEM PLAY! It only hurts your district/division, IMO. I don't think the state tourneys are called that close, are they? Are the refs from the pool you draw from calling all the fouls? Do you go to a non-conference game that has officials from another pool that call less fouls? Is sounds like the refs in your pool, to me. Not to say they're bad officials, but they teach to call a tighter game.

Heck, I don't know.

50 fouls in a 32 minute game...ouch!

Knowing a few basketball refs, I couldn't imagine any of them would push for a shift back to only 2 refs. As a football ref, I know that having 5 guys on the field always makes it easier than having only 4 refs - less people=more area to cover. Having another ref out there also gives you someone else to discuss questions with, if something comes down to a close call.

I'm sure the officials wouldn't push for it either...but it's not about them, it's about the game and the quality of it...I just don't think it is as good with 3 officials opposed to 2 officials...

GRIZLIFER wrote:I'm sure the officials wouldn't push for it either...but it's not about them, it's about the game and the quality of it...I just don't think it is as good with 3 officials opposed to 2 officials...

I bet you're in a group of less than 5% country-wide that thinks this!

Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion, but I would think those that agree w/ you are very few!

You could be right...but I'd take that bet

GRIZLIFER wrote:You could be right...but I'd take that bet

I'm a gambling man, but let me change my wording.

I would THINK you're in a group of less than 5% that think 2 is better than 3.

50 fuggin fouls, wow! Never been to a two hr HS game!

53 to be exact...25 and 28 for the respective teams and its happened three times this season for one team...I'd like to see some stats on the number of fouls called in a 2 man crew vs. 3 man crew...I'll quit my whining

I wouldn't say you're whining, but you should be concerned. I can't imagine any team fouling that much......I say it's the pool, what they teach.

I'd enter my opinion on the side of three referees contra the two. Besides which, is there some kind of quota system involved? Five, ten, twenty, fifty....So what if there were fifty fouls called!!! The game and the rules are one and the same. High school? Get real. What? You think the world turns around some bb game played out in the back woods where the refs are lucky to get out alive!!...regardless of how they call the game, right, wrong or indifferent. Offensive rhythm?...sounds like a personal problem to me. Get a coach that knows what he's doing. The loser is pissed d-u-d-e. Don't you know the home team always, always wins? Why don't you high schoolers dispense with the game altogether and just pick up clubs, knives and guns and go at it? Then you don't have to worry about your poor, poor whittle pride over your all-important high school. Then you can go about and pound your chest and tell everyone how important you are. Big bucks here, d-u-d-e. Vegas is watching and placing their bets right now, so you better watch out, d-u-d-e. You know who we are?...you better be scared.
Otherwise, we may just throw a temper tantrum, and you wouldn't like that now, now would you?

Were you drunk when you wrote this reply? Wow...

Were you drunk when you wrote this reply? Wow...

Yeah, right, blame it on a shallow lack of character; that's a good one. Always seems to work for those sitting on their thumbs all their lifes expecting the world to entertain them just because they showed up.

Never heard of fights being conducting in some bars around this state over..."our high school team could beat your team, etc., etc., etc., even though we never played and yours took the Class whatever tournament championship, even three years ago, etc., which I've witnessed. Plus the blogs that go on over on some of the Montana newspaper sites and the assorted statements as quoted above in my previous posting; almost quoted verbatim. Overlooking the grammar, etc.

You got your head in the sand over there, 'GRIZLIFER?' Hell, it was but this past year or so some parent of some player got ejected for life, wasn't it?..up in northewestern montana thereabouts?..for punching out the teams head coach over some silly so-called perceived slight. Don't woorry about it, it's just that less that 2 % of the population that's of the criminal variety; you know, the media anaylsis since the sixties has said so, plus the politicians use of propaganda. got to be politically correct you know, don't want to offend anyone.
It was but a couple years ago that some Class C school, I won't mention which one, quite obviously, that got themselves expelled from all subsequent athletic competition for some indefinite length of time just because their hs team, viewed as purposely fouling, if you want to call it that, in a tournament game, getting some thirty odd fouls while the other team had about eight with two players ejected for unsportsmanship conduct. Yeah, let's reduce the number of referees, in fact, lets get rid of all them. Go ahead and live in your Ivory Towers there, big guy, your police is guarding you quite well in your cosy little homes whereever you are. If it doesn't concern you personally, just go ahead and dismiss it, throw out some derisive qualification like..."what have you been smoking?"...."were you drunk?" etc., etc., etc.

Thomas Hobbes had a pretty good way of describing such viewpoints..."a non truth seeker, strung out on their own little fancies." Others have said..."neurotic, not listening to the world around them." Maybe as John Locke would say..."can''t look past the smoke stack coming out of their own chimneys."
But you all know how it is in Missoula...Re/Max said so to me a couple years ago when I first started posting..."go read A River Runs Through It,...as if the further away you are from Missoula the more of a bastard you are or will find." Really some kind of pompous attitude about how great Missoula is over everyone else. What's that?...a subliminal suggestion to cower the masses with? Just those referred to as the 'dumb American public' anyways, right?

Go hide somewhere, under your bed or in the closet, that way the world will go away and won't harm your precious little ass hole.

Your posts just don't make any sense is all, I was hoping you were drunk, so you'd have an excuse...

None of your points have anything to do with what I originally posted.

The point is, it is about the game...it's about the kids and their need to have a good officiated game...too many eyes! They (coaches and kids) work too damn hard in the offseason and during the season to have a game dictated by 53 fouls...were you there? did you see that game? No you didn't...

You are trashing Montana like Wyoming is this amazing place so different then Montana. And then you get all fancy and start quoting these people of the past...well not everybody agrees with their viewpoint...

Their is something to be said about someone who trys to make his point by stating what someone else has said in the past...he can't think for himself, hence, you...

Have a great day!