you can't deny mike montgomery's success at stanford but according to me, he was only our fourth best coach at montana in post-war era.

1. jud heathcote: turned program around, recruited our greatest player ever (micheal ray) won one of two games at big dance, coached us in possibly most ballyhooed game in our history (three point loss to ucla), and achieved post-montana fame by recruiting magic johnson before winning a national championship at michigan state. negative: overall winning percentage of .586 trails krysko, montgomery, morrill and taylor.

2. larry krystkowiak: in two years turned program around, got us to big dance both years, won only second game we've ever won there, turned in highest winning percentage in history of school (.677). negative: lousy recruiter (see dave vanderjagt.)

3. stew morrill: had third-highest winning percentage (.651), got us to big dance once, recruited black players to montana where montgomery claimed he couldn't (travis decuire, nate atchison, delvon anderson, eric jordan, ossie young), left cupboard loaded for blaine taylor, who turned in a 26-5 record year after he left that put us in big dance against florida state where we lost by ten. negatives: none that i can think of.

4. mike montgomery: second all-time winningest coach at montana after jiggs dahlberg, second highest winning percentage (.671) after krysko, recruited krysko and derrick pope, got us to the n.i.t. once, had a spectacular career post-montana. negatives: never won big game, fattened up on a cupcake schedule, claimed he couldn't recruit black players to missoula.

5. blaine taylor: got us to ncaa tournament once, turned in a winning percentage of .648, has had a productive career post-montana. negatives: ran afoul of personal issues, brought in one recruiting class that went totally bust (don carter, dominique davis, a third washout from las vegas) leading in part to decline of the program.

Not a bad assessment, but i think Monty has to move up when you look at the entire body of work.

just judging him on his performance at montana, gb1.

citygriz wrote:just judging him on his performance at montana, gb1.

Oh I know, and I agree.

Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

i dunno, just part of the absorbed wisdom of being a griz fan for many years. monty made that complaint on several occasions, one of many ways he expressed his dissatisfaction with missoula. i think monty was a california kid who was always anxious to get back.

He played and went to college at CSULB didn't he? Well like you said his successor didn't have any problem. I know I was bumed when Stew left for the CSU job I would have liked him to stay for atleast another season or 2. I really think the Griz could of beat FSU and maybe even got into the Sweet 16 that year if he was coaching.

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

If you are looking to judge the Griz basketball coaches since the 60's forward, winning percentages do not tell determine who is the best coach. The real point I would make though, is that winning percentage might not tell the whole story, and the same thing that I say here could also be said about football and Don Read. You have different kind of coaches, one that build a program and those who care take a program. People who build a program, don't always have the shiniest records compared to those who take over a program once it is built. Heathcote built a program and started a tradition that went from him to Brandenburg (sp?), Montgomery, and to Morril. Those four coaches represent the golden years of Griz basketball. Heathcote built it, Brandenburg maintained it and Montgomery and Morril turned it into the power in the Big Sky. Taylor had a nice win loss record, but in my opinion coasted on the strength of the what the previous coaches left him. Taylor won with Morrils players, and when Morrils seniors graduated, he left the program, with the cupboards bare. Holtz was set up to fail by Taylor (although I would argue he really did not fail) Krystowiak was on to something special at UM, but I can not rank him up their with those guy's after only two years, especially since it appears most of his recruits washed out.

1) Heathcote
2) Morril *
3) Montgomery
4) Brandenburg

There is a big drop off between #4 and who ever you want to call #5....... it isn't even close.

*Some may argue Monty in front of Morril, to be honest I am really bias when it comes to Morril - I admit that.

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

apparently you don't know who he is recruiting.

good points, mslacat, especially about coaches who build v. those who maintain. i put krysko that high simply because he had the ability to win big games--two big sky conference tourney titles, and one win at the big dance. true he inherited some talent in strait, martin, dhlouy, chavez and criswell, but he also recruited matthews, who was a major key to winning those big games.

i do agree about his recruiting--not up to par with his predecessors or even his successor. whether he could have maintained his success is open to debate, but he nonetheless left with the highest winning percentage in the history of girz basketball.

i remain a big stew morrill fan and have no problem rating him that high. but i would never put brandenberg ahead of krysko. and remember, monty never won the big games in ten years that krysko did in two.

citygriz wrote:good points, mslacat, especially about coaches who build v. those who maintain. i put krysko that high simply because he had the ability to win big games--two big sky conference tourney titles, and one win at the big dance. true he inherited some talent in strait, martin, dhlouy, chavez and criswell, but he also recruited matthews, who was a major key to winning those big games.

i do agree about his recruiting--not up to par with his predecessors or even his successor. whether he could have maintained his success is open to debate, but he nonetheless left with the highest winning percentage in the history of girz basketball.

i remain a big stew morrill fan and have no problem rating him that high. but i would never put brandenberg ahead of krysko. and remember, monty never won the big games in ten years that krysko did in two.

A lot of good points by mslacat and yourself city. One thing that gets overlooked a lot is the schedules that Monty, Stew, Brandy, Blaine, played back then. They would get ripped to shreds on boards like Egriz today. The scheduling of Simon Frasers to assure 20 win seasons didn't help in regular season as evidenced by Monty's failure to ever win the BSC, despite the record he compiled. Winning percentages can be very deceiving.

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

apparently you don't know who he is recruiting.

Apparently you haven't seen the roster recently. With the players returning and currently committed, 12 of 13 players are white. 92%. I'm not saying that Tinkle doesn't recruit black players. The issue at hand is getting black players to commit to UM, not just recruiting them.

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

apparently you don't know who he is recruiting.

Apparently you haven't seen the roster recently. With the players returning and currently committed, 12 of 13 players are white. 92%. I'm not saying that Tinkle doesn't recruit black players. The issue at hand is getting black players to commit to UM, not just recruiting them.

I have seen the roster, and also have a fair idea who is being recruited. If you want to see a white roster, take a look at Gonzaga, they have very few black players, yet it seems to be working nicely for them. I don't care if Tinks recruits little green aliens from Mars if they can help the Griz win games.

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

apparently you don't know who he is recruiting.

Apparently you haven't seen the roster recently. With the players returning and currently committed, 12 of 13 players are white. 92%. I'm not saying that Tinkle doesn't recruit black players. The issue at hand is getting black players to commit to UM, not just recruiting them.

I have seen the roster, and also have a fair idea who is being recruited. If you want to see a white roster, take a look at Gonzaga, they have very few black players, yet it seems to be working nicely for them. I don't care if Tinks recruits little green aliens from Mars if they can help the Griz win games.

Gonzaga might seem like a very white team, but right now 6 of their 13 players are black. 54% white, compared to 92% at UM. I don't care about their skin color either. The only reason it is significant is because it can become a drawback when trying to sign out of state black players.

Every high school kid worries about fitting in when making the transition from HS to college, but it has got to be an even bigger of a concern for a black player coming to Missoula, Montana where only 0.04% of the population is black and there is only 1 black player on the basketball team (who is a senior). Maybe that played a factor in guys like Sean Watson, Rundles, Graves, Swift, Lloyd Philips, Gus Chase, etc not working out at UM/Missoula.

For a frame of reference; there are more white students at Howard University than black students at UM.

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

apparently you don't know who he is recruiting.

Apparently you haven't seen the roster recently. With the players returning and currently committed, 12 of 13 players are white. 92%. I'm not saying that Tinkle doesn't recruit black players. The issue at hand is getting black players to commit to UM, not just recruiting them.

I have seen the roster, and also have a fair idea who is being recruited. If you want to see a white roster, take a look at Gonzaga, they have very few black players, yet it seems to be working nicely for them. I don't care if Tinks recruits little green aliens from Mars if they can help the Griz win games.

Gonzaga might seem like a very white team, but right now 6 of their 13 players are black. 54% white, compared to 92% at UM. I don't care about their skin color either. The only reason it is significant is because it can become a drawback when trying to sign out of state black players.

Every high school kid worries about fitting in when making the transition from HS to college, but it has got to be an even bigger of a concern for a black player coming to Missoula, Montana where only 0.04% of the population is black and there is only 1 black player on the basketball team (who is a senior). Maybe that played a factor in guys like Sean Watson, Rundles, Graves, Swift, Lloyd Philips, Gus Chase, etc not working out at UM/Missoula.

For a frame of reference; there are more white students at Howard University than black students at UM.

I don't know what the point of the frame of reference was, but Georgetown University is a white school too, but you wouldn't know it if you only know about their basketball team. I think the primary reason most of the players you mention left is they weren't good enough, committed enough, and in one case, love sickness won out. Time to move on from them and see who Tinks replaces them with.

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Grizbacker1 wrote:

Turd Ferguson wrote:

Sugar Bear 16 wrote:Not being able to recruit black players to Montana. Where did you find that info or quote at citygriz?

I think Tinkle is having the same problem.

apparently you don't know who he is recruiting.

Apparently you haven't seen the roster recently. With the players returning and currently committed, 12 of 13 players are white. 92%. I'm not saying that Tinkle doesn't recruit black players. The issue at hand is getting black players to commit to UM, not just recruiting them.

I have seen the roster, and also have a fair idea who is being recruited. If you want to see a white roster, take a look at Gonzaga, they have very few black players, yet it seems to be working nicely for them. I don't care if Tinks recruits little green aliens from Mars if they can help the Griz win games.

Gonzaga might seem like a very white team, but right now 6 of their 13 players are black. 54% white, compared to 92% at UM. I don't care about their skin color either. The only reason it is significant is because it can become a drawback when trying to sign out of state black players.

Every high school kid worries about fitting in when making the transition from HS to college, but it has got to be an even bigger of a concern for a black player coming to Missoula, Montana where only 0.04% of the population is black and there is only 1 black player on the basketball team (who is a senior). Maybe that played a factor in guys like Sean Watson, Rundles, Graves, Swift, Lloyd Philips, Gus Chase, etc not working out at UM/Missoula.

For a frame of reference; there are more white students at Howard University than black students at UM.

Washington State. Davidson, Gonzaga (winning with 3 or 4 white starters), Duke, etc. I don't think this should be a black and white debate. Missoula is a very culturally diverse town and welcomes diversity so I don't think Missoula, Montana is the problem. Unless you want to compare it to where the kids grew up and the change of lifestyle they are expected to live. For a middle-class kid coming from out of state it is going to be more likely easier to live and play basketball in a place like Missoula. I would be interested in knowing more about these kids that have left recently and what their background is/was.

Good question bigtyme. I think what everybody is trying to figure out is what is the cross correlations between minority recruits leaving and the demographics at the U, MSU, and the state in comparision to past programs and other programs. Recruiting has such wide scope on kids signing, not signing, leaving, etc that it's hard to really determine the reasons or pinpoint one thing with any program.

bigtime, Missoula might be a culturally diverse town compared to Havre, Bozeman, or Butte, but it's really not compared to anywhere else. (93% white, 0.36% black.)

SB, that's exactly what I am saying. There are always multiple reasons a player/student transfers and it's never just one thing. I feel like when a player encounters a bump in the road in terms of playing time or coaching philosophy but he has strong bonds with his teammates, loves his school, and likes the town he lives in, he's going to stick it out and work harder and make it work. When a player hits a bump in the road in terms of BBall, but has average relationships with his teammates, mediocre feelings about his school, and doesn't fit in in his town, he's going to start looking elsewhere for a place that's more for him.

This started in another thread when people were discussing the lack of geographical diversity on the team and how Tinkle may or may not be depending too much on Washington/NW. I feel like it would be easier to sign talented players from Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Tennessee, Michigan, etc who might be black if there were greater diversity in Missoula, at UM, and on the men's basketball team.

For example, when a player goes to Spokane or Durham, he doesn't have to feel different by being one of only 2 black players on the basketball team and one of only 210-250 black people in town.

http://missoula.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

It's just an observation. Tinkle's gonna get the best players he can regardless of hometown or race. But when it comes to signing players and retaining players, there is definitely a cultural factor that I think many fans take for granted.

* add Jovanni Sims to the previous list of players that have come to Missoula and left in recent years.

[quote="Turd Ferguson"]bigtime, Missoula might be a culturally diverse town compared to Havre, Bozeman, or Butte, but it's really not compared to anywhere else. (93% white, 0.36% black.)

SB, that's exactly what I am saying. There are always multiple reasons a player/student transfers and it's never just one thing. I feel like when a player encounters a bump in the road in terms of playing time or coaching philosophy but he has strong bonds with his teammates, loves his school, and likes the town he lives in, he's going to stick it out and work harder and make it work. When a player hits a bump in the road in terms of BBall, but has average relationships with his teammates, mediocre feelings about his school, and doesn't fit in in his town, he's going to start looking elsewhere for a place that's more for him.

This started in another thread when people were discussing the lack of geographical diversity on the team and how Tinkle may or may not be depending too much on Washington/NW. I feel like it would be easier to sign talented players from Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona, Tennessee, Michigan, etc who might be black if there were greater diversity in Missoula, at UM, and on the men's basketball team.

For example, when a player goes to Spokane or Durham, he doesn't have to feel different by being one of only 2 black players on the basketball team and one of only 210-250 black people in town.

http://missoula.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

It's just an observation. Tinkle's gonna get the best players he can regardless of hometown or race. But when it comes to signing players and retaining players, there is definitely a cultural factor that I think many fans take for granted.

* add Jovanni Sims to the previous list of players that have come to Missoula and left in recent years.[/quote]

I could post the names of far more black players who came and stayed 4 years, so why the big deal over it? As you said yourself, Tinks is going to get the best players he can, regardless. I think this topic is a bit over analyzed trying to find something that I don't think is there personally.

I think everyone would agree however, most successful D-1 college basketball programs are predominatly black----not white.

westsider wrote:I think everyone would agree however, most successful D-1 college basketball programs are predominatly black----not white.

I would say over the last 20 years Duke has probably had more white players than black. UCLA back in it's run had a lot of white players.

I think it's too hard of a statement too support. However, I wonder if anybody has researched such a stat or correlation?

This thread started out as Monty No. 4 in coaches starting with Heathcote and degenerated into black/white.

Going back to the thread...

Jim Brandenburg does NOT belong among top 4. He inherited Heathcote's stuff, brought in Lee Johnson who cost about 8 forfeit losses, and moved on to Wyoming after his second year, I think.

He certainly did NOT accomplish in two years what Larry K did in two years. So no to Jim B.

And UCLA did have a string of great black players, most notably Alcindor, Wicks and Rowe, along with Hazard. Just for starters. Walton and Goodrich were probably the best of the whiteys.

LakeGriz wrote:This thread started out as Monty No. 4 in coaches starting with Heathcote and degenerated into black/white.

Going back to the thread...

Jim Brandenburg does NOT belong among top 4. He inherited Heathcote's stuff, brought in Lee Johnson who cost about 8 forfeit losses, and moved on to Wyoming after his second year, I think.

He certainly did NOT accomplish in two years what Larry K did in two years. So no to Jim B.

And UCLA did have a string of great black players, most notably Alcindor, Wicks and Rowe, along with Hazard. Just for starters. Walton and Goodrich were probably the best of the whiteys.

Where is the thread going now? Into UCLA history?

This is an odd cultural phenomenon of the salt and pepper mix in college hoops. Most programs have at least one pepper assistant coach on the staff. I think this is a poor lack of judgement on Tinkles behalf and he needs to make a change with his assistants...to show he might have some kahunas.

Black families will have a hard time sending their sons to an all white program, including all white coaches to a place on the globe near north Idaho. They need someone (a recruiter) they can connect too and trust.

Leroy Washington did a great job recruiting high character black players during his time at UM. Without doubt, any inner city kid who comes to Missoula will experience culture shock, despite the fact Missoula is as cool as it gets.

Wayne needs to step up, make a change with his assistants (WHICH IS NEEDED) and hire a black assistant coach or face the perception of racism by many.

Making a change with one assistant has many upsides for Wayne, but does he have the balls to pull the trigger...?

He needs to recognize some type of change is needed vs trying the same recipe again.

Bringing it back to Tinks again, but he is the boss.