"Hillary Keeps Sinking Lower"

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"Hillary Keeps Sinking Lower"

Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:05 am

This is an interesting take on some of Hillary's tactics which do appear at times to be quite Rovian. I think former DNC Chairman - turned Clinton staffer Terry McCauliffe's influence can be seen. I wonder if people like McCauliffe and Dick Morris are more represntative of the Hillary side of the two-headed Clinton beast?

I think the author also makes a solid point on the ethics and strategic success of saber-rattling. The Bush, McCain, and now Clinton tactic versus Obama's interest in opening up a dialogue and diplomacy. Why can't we still speak softly and carry a big stick?:

Hillary keeps sinking lower
Robert Scheer
Creators Syndicate
April 26, 2008


How proud the Clintonistas must be. They have learned how to out-slime what Hillary once termed the "vast right-wing conspiracy" in the effort to destroy a viable Democratic leader who dares to stand in the way of their ambitions.

The tactics used to kneecap Barack Obama are the same as had been previously turned on Bill Clinton, from radical-baiting an opponent's associates to challenging his resolve in protecting the nation from foreign enemies. Her eminently sensible and centrist – to a fault – opponent is now viewed as weak and even vaguely unpatriotic because he is thoughtful. Neither Karl Rove nor Dick Morris could have done a better job.

On Election Day, even with polls showing her well ahead in Pennsylvania, Hillary Clinton went lower in her grab for votes. Seizing upon a question of how she would respond to a nuclear attack by Iran, which doesn't have nuclear weapons, on Israel, which does, Clinton mocked reasoned discourse by promising to "totally obliterate them," in an apparent reference to the population of Iran. That is not a word gaffe – it is an assertion of the right of our nation to commit genocide on an unprecedented scale.

As the potential leader of a nation that used nuclear bombs to obliterate hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese, shouldn't any potential American leader employ extreme caution in making such a threat? Neither the Japanese then, nor the Iranian people now, were in a position to hold their leaders accountable. To approve such collective punishment of innocents is to endorse terrorism. This from a candidate who attacked her opponent for suggesting targeted strikes against militants in Pakistan and derided his openness to negotiations with other national leaders as an irresponsible commitment on the part of a contender for the presidency.

Clearly the heat of a campaign is not the proper setting for consideration of a response to a threat from a nation that is a long way from developing nuclear weapons. Obviously, the danger of Iran developing such weapons can be met with a range of alternatives, from the diplomatic to the military, that do not involve genocide and at any rate must be considered in moral and not solely political terms. Or is it base political ambition that would guide Clinton when she receives that middle-of-the-night phone call?

If so, it cannot be assumed that Hillary Clinton as president would be less irrationally hawkish and more restrained in the unleashing of military force than John McCain. The latter, at least, has personal experience with on-the-ground costs of militarism gone wild. Yes, I know that McCain still holds out the hope of winning the Iraq war that both he and Clinton originally endorsed, but for Clinton to raise the rhetoric against Iran in the midst of a campaign is hardly the path to Mideast peace, whether it concerns Israel or Iraq. It is bizarre that a politician who bought into the phony threat about Iraq's nonexistent weapons of mass destruction arsenal now plays political games with the alleged threat posed by Iran.

The war that both Clinton and McCain voted to authorize has accomplished only one major change in the configuration of Mideast power: the uncontested supremacy of Iran as the region's key player. Whatever chance there is for stability in Iraq now depends on the blessings of the ayatollahs of Iran, whose surrogates were put in power in Baghdad as a consequence of the American invasion. It is totally hypocritical for Clinton, or McCain, to now talk about getting tough with Iran over the nuclear weapons issue when they both contributed so mightily to squandering U.S. leverage over Tehran.

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To meet that potential nuclear weapons threat from Iran requires a serious nonrhetorical multinational response that makes clear that no nation has the right to obliterate the population of another, and that all nations, even our own, who claim that right should be challenged as unacceptably barbaric.

Instead, Clinton played into the thoughts of fanatics throughout the world who believe that might makes right and who take the United States, which spends more on the military than the rest of the world combined (including many billions on new sophisticated and "usable" nuclear weapons), as both their enemy and an example to emulate.

What better argument do the ayatollahs need to justify their obtaining a nuclear "deterrent" than that the putative leader of the first nation to develop nuclear weapons, and the only one to ever use them to kill people, now threatens the people of Iran with obliteration?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act". Orwell
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Postby Grizbacker1 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:45 am

How can anyone be surprised at anything a Clinton will do to get what they want?
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Postby GrizWhiz on Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:45 am

Her tactics have guaranteed that I (a Dem) will not vote for her in the general election. I won't vote for McCain either. I guess that leaves Bob Barr. :thumb:
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Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:47 am

Grizbacker1 wrote:How can anyone be surprised at anything a Clinton will do to get what they want?


Is there a correlation between that and their success at winning elections?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act". Orwell
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Postby Bronco on Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:28 pm

Jimmah Carter opened a dialog recently with Hamas...how'd that work out?
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Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:43 pm

Bronco wrote:Jimmah Carter opened a dialog recently with Hamas...how'd that work out?


Aside from hurting the feelings of some hard liners in the U.S. and Israel, was there a big negative? I wonder if Carter created a dialogue between Egypt and Israel when he brokered their peace agreement?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act". Orwell
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Postby Bronco on Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:52 pm

After proclaiming that Hamas terrorists were willing to accept Israel as a "neighbor next door," Carter's Hamas buddies flipped him the bird. They gladly accepted the diplomatic legitimacy his visit gave them... while announcing that they still strive for the destruction of Israel.

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Postby Bronco on Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:58 pm

AP
Israel's ambassador to the United Nations on Thursday called former President Jimmy Carter "a bigot" for meeting with the leader of the militant Hamas movement in Syria.

Carter, a Nobel Peace Prize winner, "went to the region with soiled hands and came back with bloody hands after shaking the hand of Khaled Mashaal, the leader of Hamas," Ambassador Dan Gillerman told a luncheon briefing for reporters.
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Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:54 pm

Bronco wrote:After proclaiming that Hamas terrorists were willing to accept Israel as a "neighbor next door," Carter's Hamas buddies flipped him the bird. They gladly accepted the diplomatic legitimacy his visit gave them... while announcing that they still strive for the destruction of Israel.

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Too funny. I guessed that the guy in the picture was Neville Chamberlain - based on how many times I've heard hacks like Hannity use "the peace in our time" analogy to pandering with the enemy. But I didn't know for sure until I saw his name in the image link when I quoted your post.

Yes, i'd imagine that the far right exists in Israel too. And just like our neo-cons they probably have a black and white view of the world which leads them to be narrow minded peace obstructionists with an uncomfortably friendly relationship to defense contractors.

Just because you talk with these groups doesn't mean you must offer compromises or make sacrifices. But communication is always a good thing.
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Postby GrizWhiz on Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:21 pm

kalm wrote:
Bronco wrote:After proclaiming that Hamas terrorists were willing to accept Israel as a "neighbor next door," Carter's Hamas buddies flipped him the bird. They gladly accepted the diplomatic legitimacy his visit gave them... while announcing that they still strive for the destruction of Israel.

Image


Too funny. I guessed that the guy in the picture was Neville Chamberlain - based on how many times I've heard hacks like Hannity use "the peace in our time" analogy to pandering with the enemy. But I didn't know for sure until I saw his name in the image link when I quoted your post.

Yes, i'd imagine that the far right exists in Israel too. And just like our neo-cons they probably have a black and white view of the world which leads them to be narrow minded peace obstructionists with an uncomfortably friendly relationship to defense contractors.

Just because you talk with these groups doesn't mean you must offer compromises or make sacrifices. But communication is always a good thing.
Agreed....Carter, unlike Chamberlain, is not in a position to offer anything. It's really a baseless analogy.
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Postby Bronco on Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:59 pm

After the habitat for Hamas meetings, Carter announced with fanfare that he had achieved a breakthrough. He announced significant concessions by Hamas.

He “said they would accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders if approved by Palestinians, and that they would accept the right of Israel to live as a neighbor in peace, provided the agreements negotiated by [Palestinian Authority] President [Mahmoud] Abbas were submitted to the Palestinians,”.
Hamas the next day said "we did no such thing."

I guess when you’re considered to be the worst president in history... you would be desperate to change that perception. This won’t help.
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Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:17 pm

Bronco wrote:After the habitat for Hamas meetings, Carter announced with fanfare that he had achieved a breakthrough. He announced significant concessions by Hamas.

He “said they would accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders if approved by Palestinians, and that they would accept the right of Israel to live as a neighbor in peace, provided the agreements negotiated by [Palestinian Authority] President [Mahmoud] Abbas were submitted to the Palestinians,”.
Hamas the next day said "we did no such thing."

I guess when you’re considered to be the worst president in history... you would be desperate to change that perception. This won’t help.


I have to admit that habitat for hamas is pretty damned funny. As for Carter's legacy - you're certainly entitled to your own opinions.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act". Orwell
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Postby Grizbacker1 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:26 pm

kalm wrote:
Grizbacker1 wrote:How can anyone be surprised at anything a Clinton will do to get what they want?


Is there a correlation between that and their success at winning elections?


Do I have to do ALL you thinking for you? :thumb:
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Postby Bronco on Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:16 pm

Forgot one important difference between Chamberlain and Carter.
England sent Chamberlain....
United States asked Carter not to go.
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Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:31 pm

Grizbacker1 wrote:
kalm wrote:
Grizbacker1 wrote:How can anyone be surprised at anything a Clinton will do to get what they want?


Is there a correlation between that and their success at winning elections?


Do I have to do ALL you thinking for you? :thumb:


No no, just the cosmic questions. Dream mind or dream body. What was going on the second before the big bang. BBQ pork ribs or chicken wings at the tailate. Spread option or pro-set. Maroon and silver or copper and gold. :thumb:
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act". Orwell
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Postby Bronco on Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:52 pm

"No no, just the cosmic questions. Dream mind or dream body. What was going on the second before the big bang. BBQ pork ribs or chicken wings at the tailate. Spread option or pro-set. Maroon and silver or copper and gold. "

I'll take a shot at backers light work.

Mind
Pants hit the floor
Both
Pro-set
Maroon & Silver
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Postby Bozgriz on Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:55 pm

"Pants hit the floor"

Hilarious... :clap:
"They shouldn't throw at me. I'm the father of five or six kids."-second baseman Tito Fuentes
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Postby kalm on Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:30 pm

Bronco wrote:"No no, just the cosmic questions. Dream mind or dream body. What was going on the second before the big bang. BBQ pork ribs or chicken wings at the tailate. Spread option or pro-set. Maroon and silver or copper and gold. "

I'll take a shot at backers light work.

Mind
Pants hit the floor
Both
Pro-set
Maroon & Silver


You got the first three right. :thumb:
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act". Orwell
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Postby UMclassof2002 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:32 am

Bronco hits one that hasn't landed yet.



Hilarious!
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