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Kaimin video, recruiting by UM and MSU

GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is "waiting" for UM to contact them. The point is that UM is very poor at seeking out and making contact with prospective students and even when a student makes contact with them, the effort made by UM to recruit them is probably one of the worst I have seen. They are miles behind MSU.
 
SoldierGriz said:
GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university. I once read applications for UCLA and every single one of the thousands knew how to reach the school. Many were not in the USA. However, I read this week, that the giant win for UMBC in the NCAA tournament was worth over $115 million if publicity. Let UM be in the FCS playoffs a couple of games and let DeCuire take the basketball team to the level he is taking them and I bet the applications increase. USC (the southeastern one) already researched it and found tv exposure in tournaments and bowls results in increased applications.
Also, for the MSU grad that says UM liberal arts, like fine arts, music, ceramics and applied arts are not something worth while I can assure you, financially, many UM grads in the fine arts, music, and art are doing quite well and have done so over the years. In fact, I have never had anyone in my various travels, ask me about the engineering school at MSU while many have asked about UM grads and the programs that turn them out. From Emmy winner, to Oscars, and Music awards, Pulitzers, and Rhodes Scholars UM can hold its own high ground. I think, when it comes to STEM education that is just the latest in a long series of "what's hot" today. I think more people who are serious about engineering degrees would choose Montana Tech. And, I think the what is really important are the numbers of grads in the fields, as opposed to just attending.
Click to expand...

Graduating seniors are ready for college and hundreds of thousands of them will enter in the fall.

They are bombarded with marketing materials in various forms by dozens of colleges...without inquiry. When they take the ACT or SAT they indicate their educational preferences, and administering companies sell that info to generate marketing mailing lists for universities.

Thousand and thousands of those kids check engineering. Some select business. Few select ceramics.

Right now, UM is on the outside looking in. Bondar can fix it.
Click to expand...

Nearly all will change majors before they are done. The kids might be bombarded, as you say, but that is even more reason for the future student to show initiative and contact the schools they see as desirable and to confer with the qualified counselors, some of whom might not be in the schools systems. I bring up ceramics because some of the most famous people in the art world were affiliated with UM. There is probably more money and interest in the arts overall than in an average engineering degree where even the most remote schools of India are churning them out by the thousands and others being replaced by AI. That is the great thing about UM, it has a history of opening minds. Though, to be honest, I don't know if that is still the ethos. I think it is.
 
HelenaHandBasket said:
GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is "waiting" for UM to contact them. The point is that UM is very poor at seeking out and making contact with prospective students and even when a student makes contact with them, the effort made by UM to recruit them is probably one of the worst I have seen. They are miles behind MSU.
Click to expand...

Been that way for a while, I thought they hired some high-octane outfit to help with that a couple years ago? Did it happen? Apparently not very well if at all.
 
GrizLA said:
SoldierGriz said:
GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university. I once read applications for UCLA and every single one of the thousands knew how to reach the school. Many were not in the USA. However, I read this week, that the giant win for UMBC in the NCAA tournament was worth over $115 million if publicity. Let UM be in the FCS playoffs a couple of games and let DeCuire take the basketball team to the level he is taking them and I bet the applications increase. USC (the southeastern one) already researched it and found tv exposure in tournaments and bowls results in increased applications.
Also, for the MSU grad that says UM liberal arts, like fine arts, music, ceramics and applied arts are not something worth while I can assure you, financially, many UM grads in the fine arts, music, and art are doing quite well and have done so over the years. In fact, I have never had anyone in my various travels, ask me about the engineering school at MSU while many have asked about UM grads and the programs that turn them out. From Emmy winner, to Oscars, and Music awards, Pulitzers, and Rhodes Scholars UM can hold its own high ground. I think, when it comes to STEM education that is just the latest in a long series of "what's hot" today. I think more people who are serious about engineering degrees would choose Montana Tech. And, I think the what is really important are the numbers of grads in the fields, as opposed to just attending.
Click to expand...

Graduating seniors are ready for college and hundreds of thousands of them will enter in the fall.

They are bombarded with marketing materials in various forms by dozens of colleges...without inquiry. When they take the ACT or SAT they indicate their educational preferences, and administering companies sell that info to generate marketing mailing lists for universities.

Thousand and thousands of those kids check engineering. Some select business. Few select ceramics.

Right now, UM is on the outside looking in. Bondar can fix it.
Click to expand...

Nearly all will change majors before they are done. The kids might be bombarded, as you say, but that is even more reason for the future student to show initiative and contact the schools they see as desirable and to confer with the qualified counselors, some of whom might not be in the schools systems. I bring up ceramics because some of the most famous people in the art world were affiliated with UM. There is probably more money and interest in the arts overall than in an average engineering degree where even the most remote schools of India are churning them out by the thousands and others being replaced by AI. That is the great thing about UM, it has a history of opening minds. Though, to be honest, I don't know if that is still the ethos. I think it is.
Click to expand...

I am a grad. I have a degree in the humanities. I value it. It worked for me as the US Army doesn't care what degree one earns. The problem is many/most kids today do not. The emphasis on STEM is unbelievable...pervasive in middle schools and especially in high schools. Robotics clubs have waiting lists. The world has changed. UM must change as well IMO.
 
SoldierGriz said:
GrizLA said:
SoldierGriz said:
GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university. I once read applications for UCLA and every single one of the thousands knew how to reach the school. Many were not in the USA. However, I read this week, that the giant win for UMBC in the NCAA tournament was worth over $115 million if publicity. Let UM be in the FCS playoffs a couple of games and let DeCuire take the basketball team to the level he is taking them and I bet the applications increase. USC (the southeastern one) already researched it and found tv exposure in tournaments and bowls results in increased applications.
Also, for the MSU grad that says UM liberal arts, like fine arts, music, ceramics and applied arts are not something worth while I can assure you, financially, many UM grads in the fine arts, music, and art are doing quite well and have done so over the years. In fact, I have never had anyone in my various travels, ask me about the engineering school at MSU while many have asked about UM grads and the programs that turn them out. From Emmy winner, to Oscars, and Music awards, Pulitzers, and Rhodes Scholars UM can hold its own high ground. I think, when it comes to STEM education that is just the latest in a long series of "what's hot" today. I think more people who are serious about engineering degrees would choose Montana Tech. And, I think the what is really important are the numbers of grads in the fields, as opposed to just attending.
Click to expand...

Graduating seniors are ready for college and hundreds of thousands of them will enter in the fall.

They are bombarded with marketing materials in various forms by dozens of colleges...without inquiry. When they take the ACT or SAT they indicate their educational preferences, and administering companies sell that info to generate marketing mailing lists for universities.

Thousand and thousands of those kids check engineering. Some select business. Few select ceramics.

Right now, UM is on the outside looking in. Bondar can fix it.
Click to expand...

Nearly all will change majors before they are done. The kids might be bombarded, as you say, but that is even more reason for the future student to show initiative and contact the schools they see as desirable and to confer with the qualified counselors, some of whom might not be in the schools systems. I bring up ceramics because some of the most famous people in the art world were affiliated with UM. There is probably more money and interest in the arts overall than in an average engineering degree where even the most remote schools of India are churning them out by the thousands and others being replaced by AI. That is the great thing about UM, it has a history of opening minds. Though, to be honest, I don't know if that is still the ethos. I think it is.
Click to expand...

I am a grad. I have a degree in the humanities. I value it. It worked for me as the US Army doesn't care what degree one earns. The problem is many/most kids today do not. The emphasis on STEM is unbelievable...pervasive in middle schools and especially in high schools. Robotics clubs have waiting lists. The world has changed. UM must change as well IMO.
Click to expand...
I think the military values all degrees and engineering, in particular for certain areas. But, I also think the STEM thing is just the latest in a long line of things that are in. India, South Africa, even Iran, Turkey, and all of Europe are producing engineers with specific fields but nearly all will be heavily reduced with the development of AI and those colleges that are leading in that area are probably not sending fliers to average kids. With 10 years, I bet those engineering degrees will not be such a hot item. The world moves so fast, no one can keep up, but the base of a good liberal arts college or University like Montana will be solid. People still read literature created by UM grads, listen to music created and performed by UM grads,and UM grads are on our tv screens and movie screens, sports teams, environmental boards, pharmaceutical firms, market firms...UM might not need the change so much as one would think. Bigger is not always better. Stanford, is limited to a max of 8300 undergrads, and all must take major coursework in world development. Perhaps, raising the academic requirements for entrance to UM would bring in fewer students but higher achievers who motivate the others. You simply cannot be all things to all people.
 
GrizLA said:
SoldierGriz said:
GrizLA said:
SoldierGriz said:
Graduating seniors are ready for college and hundreds of thousands of them will enter in the fall.

They are bombarded with marketing materials in various forms by dozens of colleges...without inquiry. When they take the ACT or SAT they indicate their educational preferences, and administering companies sell that info to generate marketing mailing lists for universities.

Thousand and thousands of those kids check engineering. Some select business. Few select ceramics.

Right now, UM is on the outside looking in. Bondar can fix it.
Click to expand...

Nearly all will change majors before they are done. The kids might be bombarded, as you say, but that is even more reason for the future student to show initiative and contact the schools they see as desirable and to confer with the qualified counselors, some of whom might not be in the schools systems. I bring up ceramics because some of the most famous people in the art world were affiliated with UM. There is probably more money and interest in the arts overall than in an average engineering degree where even the most remote schools of India are churning them out by the thousands and others being replaced by AI. That is the great thing about UM, it has a history of opening minds. Though, to be honest, I don't know if that is still the ethos. I think it is.
Click to expand...

I am a grad. I have a degree in the humanities. I value it. It worked for me as the US Army doesn't care what degree one earns. The problem is many/most kids today do not. The emphasis on STEM is unbelievable...pervasive in middle schools and especially in high schools. Robotics clubs have waiting lists. The world has changed. UM must change as well IMO.
Click to expand...
I think the military values all degrees and engineering, in particular for certain areas. But, I also think the STEM thing is just the latest in a long line of things that are in. India, South Africa, even Iran, Turkey, and all of Europe are producing engineers with specific fields but nearly all will be heavily reduced with the development of AI and those colleges that are leading in that area are probably not sending fliers to average kids. With 10 years, I bet those engineering degrees will not be such a hot item. The world moves so fast, no one can keep up, but the base of a good liberal arts college or University like Montana will be solid. People still read literature created by UM grads, listen to music created and performed by UM grads,and UM grads are on our tv screens and movie screens, sports teams, environmental boards, pharmaceutical firms, market firms...UM might not need the change so much as one would think. Bigger is not always better. Stanford, is limited to a max of 8300 undergrads, and all must take major coursework in world development. Perhaps, raising the academic requirements for entrance to UM would bring in fewer students but higher achievers who motivate the others. You simply cannot be all things to all people.
Click to expand...

Good points. The Air Force and Navy value STEM degrees immensely. The Army and Marine Corps value them far less. Wars are ultimately a human endeavor - ended politically on land, and settled by humans. But, I digress.

I don't share your view on the future of engineers as I think demand for them will continue to rise. But, I have no crystal ball. I do know today's economy guarantees starting salaries in approaching or in excess of $60,000 for many or most engineering grads.

Seems the choice is to chase enrollment by providing degree options that are selling and perceived by many as relevant. This would require major changes in degree programs and faculty to match.

Alternatively, UM could, as you mentioned, double down on current offerings and stop chasing enrollment. A smaller student body with correctly proportionate faculty might open the door to increasing student body "quality."

Either way - the UM must recruit these kids. They either need to aggressively recruit the top performing kids in MT and nationally, or they need to aggressively recruit many, many more kids overall. Seems they can do neither of these things right now.
 
Allezchat said:
Counter Assault said:
Wow, I just read this gem from the Kaimin too... Bodner should give this place the axe immediately. $1M cumulative losses - that's absurd. I had no idea the Iron Griz even existed. What a waste of student food dollars.

http://www.montanakaimin.com/featur...cle_8f3ea7be-0adc-11e8-b13d-2fae870b4f6c.html
Click to expand...
This quote...."Additionally, students are learning to wait tables, a skill many will end up using after college"

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Not trying to be contrary, but, maybe you are not aware that a good waiter in Las Vegas, L.A. can easily make $95,000 per year. And, in some places in excess of $125,000 per year. With that type of income, one can pick up an engineering degree on the side, or any other. Years ago, I worked at a major property in Las Vegas, where the bartenders made @65K and waitresses @ $50,000, and top waiters well over $125K. The government had a tough time in figuring out the taxes. As for colleges, maybe smaller is better. Some of the top FCS schools like Richmond, Wofford, Charleston have outstanding academics and good athletics.
 
BWahlberg said:
Not football specific but just a general reflection on both schools recruiting practices.

https://www.facebook.com/montanakaimin/videos/1810756485647070/

Now is the the be-all / end-all in what’s going on with both schools? No, absolutely not, but it’s damned embarrassing on this front for Montana.
Click to expand...

And quite bluntly WAY beyond embarrassing. :oops:
 
GrizLA said:
Allezchat said:
Counter Assault said:
Wow, I just read this gem from the Kaimin too... Bodner should give this place the axe immediately. $1M cumulative losses - that's absurd. I had no idea the Iron Griz even existed. What a waste of student food dollars.

http://www.montanakaimin.com/featur...cle_8f3ea7be-0adc-11e8-b13d-2fae870b4f6c.html
Click to expand...
This quote...."Additionally, students are learning to wait tables, a skill many will end up using after college"

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Not trying to be contrary, but, maybe you are not aware that a good waiter in Las Vegas, L.A. can easily make $95,000 per year. And, in some places in excess of $125,000 per year. With that type of income, one can pick up an engineering degree on the side, or any other.
Click to expand...

Oh, no, not contrary.........A good whore, with proper pimping, in the BIG CITY, could make 10+/X that. So? You have lived in the big city WAY too long. Where are all the former whore brain surgeons, lawyers, engineers, or whatever that have moved on?
 
you kids are a couple years late to the party. nobody promotes 'stem' any more. it is now 'steam', with arts thrown in. in other words, a well-rounded education. sports are considered part of the arts, probably just to cut down on the number of letters. anyway, what is important is a good all-around education.
 
argh! said:
you kids are a couple years late to the party. nobody promotes 'stem' any more. it is now 'steam', with arts thrown in. in other words, a well-rounded education. sports are considered part of the arts, probably just to cut down on the number of letters. anyway, what is important is a good all-around education.
Click to expand...

Thank you! There are several fields at the U of M with great interest and great appeal to actual outdoor enthusiasts that are not being promoted by those in a position to do such...I assume it has a lot to do with the mindset of my parents generation? You know, the ones who wanted to build a fence around Montana a keep everybody out?

Plus, the arts is not doing a very good job bringing those who have made it big in the entertainment industry back and point out they got their start in the field either because of the education they received here or their teachers in the public schools around here.

STEAM is the new term.
 
Sure thing on the STEAM deal. Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, Mathematics....

I get it. But, it's not fooling these kids (or their parents who want them out of their basements) who are fully tuned into the new economy.

I saw Georgia Tech's student led STEAM group recently held an African Mask symposium, and a dance troop performance. I'm sure the engineering students were in full attendance.

Anyway - I don't know what the correct solution is for UM. As an alum, I want to see the UM thrive.
 
GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university. I once read applications for UCLA and every single one of the thousands knew how to reach the school. Many were not in the USA. However, I read this week, that the giant win for UMBC in the NCAA tournament was worth over $115 million if publicity. Let UM be in the FCS playoffs a couple of games and let DeCuire take the basketball team to the level he is taking them and I bet the applications increase. USC (the southeastern one) already researched it and found tv exposure in tournaments and bowls results in increased applications.
Also, for the MSU grad that says UM liberal arts, like fine arts, music, ceramics and applied arts are not something worth while I can assure you, financially, many UM grads in the fine arts, music, and art are doing quite well and have done so over the years. In fact, I have never had anyone in my various travels, ask me about the engineering school at MSU while many have asked about UM grads and the programs that turn them out. From Emmy winner, to Oscars, and Music awards, Pulitzers, and Rhodes Scholars UM can hold its own high ground. I think, when it comes to STEM education that is just the latest in a long series of "what's hot" today. I think more people who are serious about engineering degrees would choose Montana Tech. And, I think the what is really important are the numbers of grads in the fields, as opposed to just attending.
Click to expand...

I think the days of just being a major university in the state making an impression on high schoolers are over. Recruiting new students is a marketing process and unfortunately the University is not doing a good job at it.
the one student i have mentioned is and has been recruited extensively by universities from all parts of the country except the University of Montana. His parents are very much financially challenged and having their son enroll in an instate school for his premed studies would be a huge relief. The University of Montana would be a perfect fit for them except ... silence.
 
We can't market because we don't have any money.

We don't have any money because we don't market.

Sounds like a classic death spiral. Jodcon?
 
HelenaHandBasket said:
GrizLA said:
All of these kids mentioned here are "waiting" for UM to contact them? hmmm, are they really ready for college? If you live in Montana, you would have to be very much an idiot if you do not know how to find out if there is a University in the state. The kids can contact the university.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is "waiting" for UM to contact them. The point is that UM is very poor at seeking out and making contact with prospective students and even when a student makes contact with them, the effort made by UM to recruit them is probably one of the worst I have seen. They are miles behind MSU.
Click to expand...

Seek and destroy!!!

dslIcDTlY0HbC57bKirTN0dtG7.jpg
 
'Build it and they will come'. um has poor stem programs. they are going to have to spend money to make money. Strengthen the programs they have through corporate sponsorships. msu partnered with boeing, raytheon, etc. in building a tech park building.
you can attract students to campus, but if you have crap for academics then why would they stay?
its going to be a very difficult road and might take a long time to see any results.
 
zootownrox said:
cmtgrizzly said:
zootownrox said:
They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.
Click to expand...

Interesting take. I am biased for UM as well but I dont think you can say we have better STEM faculty. I would be interested in data that backs this statement.

Can you find the data in how many freshman come to UM for pharmacy and wildlife biology, heck throw forestry in there too, combined compared to how many go to MSU for engineering alone? I dont know the answer and it would be interesting to know.

There are very few jobs in Wildlife Biology. Dont get me wrong I like the idea of a career in that field but the job market is limited. Pharmacy is an ok example as it probably does bring some freshman to campus but in truth this is an advanced degree as you apply after a couple of undergrad years and kids from other institutions compete for those positions and I dont think the classes in pharmacy are all that big. Law school is a postgraduate program and I dont believe it brings all that many new kids to campus especially freshman. I will agree the business school draws quite a few, at least it did 25 years ago. Almost everyone was a business major. Back then the feeling was that all of the people who didnt know what they wanted to do said they were a business major.
Click to expand...

The better researchers and STM (dropped the E for Engineering) comment comes partly from this recent recognition - http://missoulian.com/news/local/mo...cle_08de8b3d-bbf7-5a98-a016-449099d5637f.html partly from the UMs overall research funding numbers something like 110+ million a year, I don't have the exact number handy. While that is not a perfect measurement of professors quality it does indicate they are well respected and productive in their fields.

As for my other examples those are just off the top of my head, and the wildlife biology program specifically because having the best program in the world in anything is worth mentioning. Plus you would be surprised how many wildlife biology jobs there are - just think of the local, state and government agencies like FWS, not to mention non-profits and yes lots of private industries hire them for mitigation, consultation or planning.

As for your other comments I have no statistics on incoming freshman in programs, but it is worth noting a lot of freshman come in not knowing what major they want. The point is that UM has a lot to offer, even those who are more 'job' or 'career training' focused than academically focused and telling HS about your University is how you get them in the door. The marketing has been lacking.
Click to expand...
UM's research funding is closer to 88 million
http://missoulian.com/news/local/university-of-montana-gets-record-amount-of-research-dollars-for/article_020f4df2-5cee-5591-9b8a-d5c5fd188326.html
MSU is close to 110 Million
http://www.montana.edu/cpa/poe/research.php

I think your assumption that UM is somehow colse to MSU in STEM fields is a farce
 
At base recruiting is a relationship process, whether focused on academics or sports.

MSU is for many reasons simply out performing UM

Building relationships is a critical factor is selling any product
 
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