Ripped off ArtWork... PROOF.

[GoodGodGriz]

Everyone,
As you know or may not know, Tim Joyner (my brother) did a print for the Montana Grizzlies this year. All pictures included and used were pre-approved by the photograper (Todd Goodrich) and the University of Montana. Tims piece can be viewed at www.joynerart.com

You may have heard the buzz surrounding a print by artist Lane Timothy who is displaying a print at "Art of this World" in the SouthGate Mall.

There are some pictures apparantly being emailed around showing the similarities of Lanes work to a photo of Adrian Peterson(GSU). I did a bit of research today and indeed have found the proof of this so called artists 'rip off'. See picture below.

Not only did this guy have the audacity to copy a picture, but of Adrian Peterson no less! Nothing against the guy personally.

This 'artwork' should be banned and the artists stripped of his rights to ever do 'collegiate' work again. Call Art of This World to voice your opinion at 406-721-5181. Forward this message and picture to anyone within the University circle, friends, etc. as this type of blatant 'stealing' is illegal and immoral.

Jim Joyner

[n-zonecrayz]

It even looks like he put a #3 on the chest. Could have been a little more creative.

[chris]

wow, that looks identical. it looks as if he just printed the picture from the net, blew it up and painted over it. I know Lane and it amazes me that he would do that!! Maybe there is a story behind it (a reason for the similarities) Maybe someday we will find out!!

[GoodGodGriz]

I dont know Lane at all, and everyone is entitled to produce whatever art they want... its America isn't it? But when its something this blatent then people are getting hurt by the dishonesty involved (People at UM who worked with him with have repurcussions, the art gallery, the original photograhper, the people who have purchased this piece thinking they were getting an original piece or artwork, Adrian Peterson even...) then it simply burns me.

Jim
[Edit:
I had previously stated that UM/Wayne Hogan were involved in some fashion to have this print produced. I can't back that up, and my apologies to WH/UM for this incorrect statement. ]

[Hammer]

Not that I condone what this so called artist has obviously done, but claiming that Wayne Hogan and UM was involved in it is total BS!! So Jim do you have proof that UM was involved or are you just breaking wind through your pie hole??? From what I have heard from UM is that they were approached by the art gallery to promote the print in exchange for a donation. and it ended right there. If you have any info otherwise Jim, post it on here. If you don't, then it's a shame that you would slam UM publicly after all they have done to promote your brothers' excellent piece.

[Hammer]

Jim, if you don't know what Powder River, Let Er Buck means, then maybe you shouldn't be posting on a Grizzly message board. Sheeeshhh!!!!!

[GoodGodGriz]

Hammer,
My knowledge of UM involvement ends with what you said... Hogan/UM helped promote the piece in exchange for a donation.

I personally think that UM should get a little more than what this artist RE-produced. I mean, wouldn't it be nice to have an original piece of work, of a UM player (not a competitor?)

What we understand is that Lane Timothy was commissioned by Art of this World to produce this piece, and the donation was from the Gallery. So, to make his money, Lane simply found an easy pic to COPY and sell as his own.

The University is a much a victim in this whole deal as anyone. I'm not doing this so my brothers art will be sold more than Lanes.. he's doing just fine on his own, I dont think that UM / GRIZ Fans should be sold something that is not what is promised.

Peace about this... its something the NCAA Licensing Committee should deal with. Im just raising awareness.

Jim

[Hammer]

Jim, just to clarify, since no donation EVER came from Art of this World, UM did not promote the print in any way. I just found fault with your statement about WH/UM being directly involved. That was a false statement. I agree with you that this gallery/artist needs to have his collegiate art licence revoked. But please don't say UM was invoved because if anything they have distanced themselves from this.

[Guest]

Who was #3 on the 2001 roster? This year it appears to be #3 Trey Young, a free safety.

[ObservantEagle]

Thank you for posting the original photo next to the oil painting. I'd have to disagree with the artist on the few counts. First, last time I checked, the Griz did not have a stripe on their helmets and the face mask should be maroon, not a grayish color like Georgia Southern's.

So, if the artist is going to say it's a coincidence, at least that individual should have taken the time to be accurate.

[Wingspan]

I have the original picture somewhere at home of AP. In the original, even the guys on the background lying on the ground are the same. It's no coincidence.

[1peatfor7]

[color=darkblue]I think that AP pose was either on the 2001 GSU media guide or pocket schedule.

Here is an except of the artist's response:

Please notice the other body, the color changes, etc. Adrian Petersen was an outstanding player, but nobody "owns" a pose, which is the one and only similarity between this painting and that picture. I can assure you plenty of other running backs have been in that position before.

My only problem with that is #3 is a free safety on Montana, not a RB.

1) I know it's too far for you to come, but if you were in our store you would see a 3 1/2 x 4 ft. original oil painting, and it looks quite a bit
different than this picture(which I had never seen before).

Here is what the GSU Media Relations director had to say about the print:

Since the photo is officially the property of GSU, let's just say our administration is dealing with it in an appropriate and just manner.

[Dave]

That is pathetic. I am going to write a letter to Art of this World to complain. Perhaps the Missoulian needs to do a story on this.

[GeauxGriz]

Yep....quite clear on this one.....I didn't realize the artist had denied that he copied this pic. Not so smart... It is clearly a rip off. If it was a Griz player, it would have the Big Sky confernce patch on the right shoulder pad.

The one that really gets me though is how if you look at the left shoulder pad and scope the Nike design...look at how the wrinkles there even match the photo....


It is too bad.... If I were that guy I would remove it from the portfolio! And give up the arguement. And lay low for a while....

[GoodGodGriz]

Just a final word on this thread...

This is a clear case of using someone else's 'property' (apparantly GSU 'owns' the rights to the picture) for profit. If the artist Lane Timothy has "written permission" from GSU to use the picture then there is no situation here. However, from previous posts here, he is seemingly denying the fact that he copied it all, which leads me to believe that he did not have that permission.

The big burner is that he used a rivals picture for the piece. Tell me how many GRIZ fans want a picture of Adrian Peterson in a GRIZ uniform (wait, its really a GSU uniform painted maroon isn't it?) commemorating the GRIZ National Championship? Leaves a bit of a sour taste in your mouth doesn't it.

I'm hopeful and confident that this situation will be resolved in the near future.

Didn't mean to start a huge controversy, just open the eyes of the GRIZ fans to what a travesty this whole thing has become.

In the immortal words of Greg Proops...
Peace Out

[Rockin Eagle]

Even as a lifelong Georgia Southern fan, I can see why you Griz fans should be outraged. We're proud of our six national championships, but your program has our utter respect, and taking the player whose individual effort denied the Griz a national championship in an exceedingly competitive and well-played game in 2000 and transforming him into an image meant to represent the team is a slap in the face of the 2000 runners-up more than anyone. Number two may not be where the 2000 team wanted to be, but that group was exceptional, and this disrespects them more than anyone! Another three minutes in that game and Montana may have been back-to-back champs! (As a GSU fan, I don't really think that )

The real kicker is that the artist denies everything. The version you see here (from the apforheisman site) is not the original pictire, which even further reinforces the ripoff. Sorry it had to happen to great football fans like you, because if someone put Yo Humphrey in a GSU uniform, our fans would be outraged, too. Yo was a great player, but he was no more an Eagle than Adrian was a Grizzly.

Go Eagles! Go Griz! Let's meet in Chattanooga and show ESPN what a NC game is all about again like we did in 2000!!!

[GoodGodGriz]

Rockin Eagle,

Amen to your statement above, couldn't have said it better myself.

Your outlook on this situation is certainly fresh and intelligently thought out. Thanks for your input.

Jim

[TALON]

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SilverTip



Joined: 08 Apr 2002
Posts: 21

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:19 pm Post subject: Ripped off? What do you guys think?

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Being GSU faithful and Peterson fans, you all need to take a look at some supposed 'original' artwork. http://www.egriz.com/GrizBoard/viewtopic.php?t=51

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SilverTip



Joined: 08 Apr 2002
Posts: 21

Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:33 pm Post subject:

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Just another link so you can see where this 'art' is being displayed.
http://www.artofthisworld.com
This link doesnt seem to be working like I thought it would, but it will work if ya copy n paste.

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bcube



Joined: 07 Apr 2002
Posts: 166
Location: purpledom SC
Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:10 pm Post subject:

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Wow what a blatant rip off.
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gsuone



Joined: 13 Apr 2002
Posts: 395
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 8:13 am Post subject:

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this is not a good thing for the Montana fans....ripping off on success from AP and his work by artists
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blueballs



Joined: 08 Apr 2002
Posts: 143
Location: Longwood, FL via McRae, GA
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 11:54 am Post subject:

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What a slap in the face to the Montana program. SilverTip, you guys are successful enough and have enough class that you shouldn't have artwork depicting a rival's picture in your uniform. This is blatent plagarism and I wouldn't be surprised to see legal action come from this. What a shame!

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Eaglegus2



Joined: 07 Apr 2002
Posts: 303
Location: Daisy - Smallest minded town in Georgia
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 1:12 pm Post subject:

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I can litagation coming over the sunset.


I just hate that this has happened to Montana.
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EAGLES SOAR ALONE

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Hamfan



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 40

Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:40 pm Post subject:

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Yep, that's a picture of AP alright. Like the guy on the UM board said....the artist did not even bother to change his number. It would actually have been a nice rendering to commemorate our 1999 title.

I agree with what blueballs said about the Montana program and hope that UM and their fans won't stand for it.

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GSC75



Joined: 11 Apr 2002
Posts: 134
Location: Beaufort, SC
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:28 pm Post subject:

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as an artist myself, one comment......"UN-BELIEVEABLE"! The original photo is obviously copyrighted and this so-called artist needs to be held accountable. This "painting" needs to be pulled. Montana fans should be livid.

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steeleagle



Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 97
Location: Atlanta
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 7:06 pm Post subject:

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Here is the lame answer that I got when I e-mailed the owner of the gallery:

(My original e-mail) I'm glad to see that you are ripping off Montana as well as Georgia Southern fans. You need to pull this picture from circulation. BTW, I have some political cartoons for sale. They may look a lot like the ones that appear in the NY Times every Sunday, but they are original (I promise). the artist and dealer should be ashamed!

(His response) I'm not sure if you've been in our store to see the original, but I would invite you to do so. It is a 3 1/2 by 4 foot oil painting, and is clearly not a "copy" of the picture of Adriane Petersen.

I am sorry if you feel like the artist copied a picture of a player, but the fact of the matter is that it's very different. If you stopped in to see it, I'm pretty sure you'd agree.

A person in brought it to our attention earlier that their is a likeliness, but even if the artist used Adriane Petersen's pose, it's not really a "one of a kind". Did you happen to see the other player in the picture? If you looked at sports paintings, you will see styles and poses that look very familiar. Does that make it "wrong" for the artist to use it?

Again, I am sorry for how you feel, but I assure you the artist is not somebody who needs to "copy" pictures. He is very renowned- he just sold an original to Ashley Judd last week for $57,000.

Thanks for your consideration, and again I am sorry for any misunderstanding.


Does anyone have Ashley Judd's address? I have a bridge in Brooklyn I need to sell quickly!!!

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gsuone



Joined: 13 Apr 2002
Posts: 395
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2002 10:15 pm Post subject:

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On the ESPN Div I-aa message board this is a heavy topic of concern as well. Many of the Montana fans were not happy at all with this so called "Artwork"

By the way....I am curious what print that Ashley Judd purchased considering that she is a HUGE Kentcuky fan and has little interest in Montana sports (if my memory serves correct).......you can usually see her on the tv when the kentucky basketball games are televised
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GATA EAGLES!!!

[Jerry]

How sad that some disgruntled individual (Jim Joyner) would be so unhappy with his life to throw stones at others. If he knew anything about art at all he would understand that any photo and I mean "ANY PHOTO" can and is interpreted by artists worldwide everyday. It doesn't matter where their ideas for their work comes from, it is all FAIR GAME! I am an artist and I work with artists around the country. Any photo can be interpreted and painted by an artist as long as he is not doing portrait style painting(the art of actually painting on photographs). He is creating a look through the use of paint and brush, he is not using anything but images and NO ON OWNS IMAGES unless someone chooses to reproduce a photograph that is copyrighted by someone, as their own photographs, or a painting as their painting.
Stop crying Jim Joyner and stop pushing your brothers painting because you are upset about one persons success and disappointed by yours.
Life is bigger than what your mind can comprehend so instead of staying small minded, try to evolve!

[GoodGodGriz]

Wow,
I had to think long and hard about how to reply to this posting by "Jerry" who is only man enough to be a 'guest' on this board and not reveal his identity.

A couple of things...
1 - I am not doing this to help promote my brothers art. I've said that about 10 times here and on other boards. His sales are doing fine. If anything, my brother is more than a bit peeved that I'm taking this stance. I'd be doing this if I had no relationship what so ever... its about GRIZ PRIDE.

2 - I am not an artist, and I dont pretend to be. But I followed very closely every single step my brother had to take to produce his artwork, and that included:
- Getting express written permission from UM and the photographer for any image he used in his picture.
- Getting licensed by the NCAA Collegiate Licenesing program
- Getting the picture approved by UM and NCAA.
- Getting Insurance on the original
- Paying a percent of each sale to the University and the NCAA.
- Numerous other hoops.

Tell me this, if ANY picture, as you state above, is fair game for anyone to 'artistically replicate', then why did my brother have to get pre-approval and permissions from the University and the NCAA?

So, What are my problems with this? I'll tell ya, AGAIN.The artist chose a rival team, and a rival player to 'copy'. Hell, he didn't bother to take the stripe from the helmet (the Griz dont have one by the way) He copied every detail of the picture, from every wrinkle in the uniform to the arm bands. You call that 'artistic reproduction?' Now I have nothing but respect for Adrian Peterson, great athlete and probably a nice guy.

Was the artist in this case so 'hard up' for a quick painting that he didn't bother to do any research at all into the matter? I can almost guarantee you that GSU has some type of ownership of that picture, I've heard it was in their media guides and used for all sorts of promotional literature.

Please, look at this from a 'GRIZ FANS' perspective. The legal question is yet to be, and may never be, answered. But as a FAN, would you buy this picture knowing the guy in the uniform is the same guy that rumbled 40+ yards two years ago to beat the Griz in a national championship game?

Thats like putting Osama Bin Laden in a US Military Uniform!

Its a slap in the face to the Griz Fans, the University, the community of Missoula, and the State of Montana.

By the way... The T-Shirt Ship did another National Championship Print, and I'm not throwing rocks at them, now am I? Its a respectable piece and I hope they do well with it. I had no 'issues' Timothy Lanes piece until I had heard of the 'copy' and then found the picture for myself. Hell, its' been for sale longer than my brothers piece. Was I just waiting for an 'opportunistic time' to 'throw my rocks'? Please...

Jerry, look at the 'Big Picture' here and try to understand where 'the fans' are coming from.

I have lots of back hair, but I'm pretty sure that I evolved some time ago...

P.S. - Read what others have to say above... my sentiment isn't singular in this case at all.

P.S.S - If I'm so 'unhappy' in my life, then howcome my picture (the bald guy holding the bottle of Hot Damn!) clearly shows me as a happy go lucky individual?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Can't we all just get along?" - Rodney King.

[LT fan]

I find it sad that Jim would have to go to such extremes to market his brother's art.Lane Timothy is one of the most talented artists I have ever known,and would never have to copy anything to claim as his own....By the way,have you ever even approached Lane with this matter?How can you qoute somebody you've never met? I'm sure if you asked Lane,he would agree that he often pulls subject matter from books,magazines,photos etc.This is called artist's interpretation,and he has every right to do so..He is so good that it probably does look like the picture,but I assure you this painting was painted by lane's brush on a blank canvas,and it looks like a Griz to me.Lane has lived in Missoula his whole life and would never do anything to mock our university,or to insult another.....Through the years he has donated to several causes such as Camp Make A Dream, The University Rodeo team,The Grizzly Athletic Association,and most recently the Greg Moore Childrens fund,where his painting sold for $57,000,and all proceeds were donated.Doesn't sound like an artist trying to fill his own wallet,but rather an upstanding citizen with a good heart...The only people you'r hurting in this are the Griz,because believe me when I say,Lane has several fans in the world..His clientele,and work speaks for itself....

[GoodGodGriz]

How many times do I have to say it (type it) that I'm not doing this to promote my brothers work.

And I've NEVER Quoted Lane Timothy once in this entire thread. Read back through... any quotes come from other posters.

I didn't want to be doing this today.. but I decided to do a little reading on copyright laws and infringements... and everyones little theory on the 'Pose' and 'Image' hold very little water to these written laws of copyright infringement. So if you were looking for quotes, here they come.

Please read the following:

An artist's rendering of a photographic image in another medium is a derivative use of an image and therefore requires the prior written permission of the copyright owner of the original image.
Re-creating a photographic image is a derivative use and therefore requires the prior written permission of the copyright owner of the original image.
-from The American Society of Media Photographers

Another one...

Copyrighted Photographic Images may not be reproduced or copied in any form whatsoever, including the copying of the idea or concept of the image, without express written permission from the copyright holder

Last One...

Making a substantially similar copy of someone else's copyrighted image without authorization constitutes copyright infringement. It is usually necessary to show that the alleged infringer had access to the original work-but the images may be so closely identical that no explanation other than copying is possible.

How can you truly look at these two pictures and not see that this is more than merely 'reproducing' a pose, or re-creating the idea? (both of which are illegal from what I read above)

I wouldn't know Lane Timothy if he came up and kicked me in the shin. I got nothing against the guy personally, I'm sure he's an upstanding citizen and all that, just as I am. But I can't respect him as an ARTIST knowing that he's used THIS PICTURE in particular to base his work on.

THATS the point here, do you people not actually read what I've posted??

And I never stated that the work didn't come from Lanes brush. I've never implied he took the photo and pasted in on a canvas and merely painted over it. That is beyond ANYONE.

Jim

[62GRIZ]

It is NOT ethical to copy another's work and claim it as your own. What bothers me most is the ridiculous denial. The man is lying when he says it is just a coincidence that it is similar. Anyone in their right mind can tell it's a copy. Make up your own mind if he is an 'upstanding citizen.'

[confused]

ok, say all of this is true...........There are alot of serious issues going on in our world,not to mention our own community...I'm sure this guy didn't mean to offend anyone......Put your energy toward things that really matter ...

[GeauxGriz]

Wow...This topic has heated up since one of Mr. Lane's buddies found the site! Jim, don't waste your time trying to explain it to this person, who has logged in with three different names now. They are either just trying to stir your pot up....or they just don't get it. In either case, they are not worth your time.

Real Griz fans get it......Bin Laden in a Marines uniform!

Don't you find it interesting that the last post says to put your energy toward things that REALLY MATTER..........It seems like someone who was truely worried about Things that REALLY MATTER wouldn't waste their time arguing a point they didn't think REALLY MATTERS....... :roll:

Tim Lane did what he did....it was wrong....Griz fans should be upset....now he must live with it. It is pretty simple. No need to get ugly about it.