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U.S. Colleges Are Separating Into Winners and Losers...

Colorado S14

Colorado S14

Active member
I was reading through the thread from the Idaho fan asking about MSU and someone mentioned that Montana needs to refocus on it's historically best regarded schools within the university to find success. I know that the Journalism, English, Forestry, and Law Schools within the University have historically been very well regarded, but, the college/university model is changing and if Montana, or any school, does not change with it they will lose out. I tracked down a very interesting article from the Wall Street Journal that I read earlier in the year which discussed this. I encourage everyone to read, it is very interesting.

U.S. Colleges Are Separating Into Winners and Losers
Schools that struggle to prepare students for success losing ground; ‘The shake-out is coming’
https://www.worcester.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=11993
*The article on WSJ.com requires a subscription, this link will open as a .pdf.
 
Colorado S14 said:
I was reading through the thread from the Idaho fan asking about MSU and someone mentioned that Montana needs to refocus on it's historically best regarded schools within the university to find success. I know that the Journalism, English, Forestry, and Law Schools within the University have historically been very well regarded, but, the college/university model is changing and if Montana, or any school, does not change with it they will lose out. I tracked down a very interesting article from the Wall Street Journal that I read earlier in the year which discussed this. I encourage everyone to read, it is very interesting.

U.S. Colleges Are Separating Into Winners and Losers
Schools that struggle to prepare students for success losing ground; ‘The shake-out is coming’
https://www.worcester.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=11993
*The article on WSJ.com requires a subscription, this link will open as a .pdf.
Click to expand...

A good article. Given the cost of tuition and lack of student loans available to prospective students - things will not improve in the near future. A symptom of larger problems with our society and employers may have a hard time finding qualified and educated employees in the future. Universities may want to consider cutting out some requirements to reduce the time to graduation/expense ratio. They better figure something out because the politicians certainly aren’t looking out for the next generation(s).
 
Interesting. UM would do well to promote the technical and scientific majors that it has. In the Environmental community here in Portland, an earth science degree (biology, chemistry, natural resources, etc) from Montana is well regarded. The long term survival of the school may hinge on the ability to market these fields and expand these departments.
 
I did not attend UM, but Metro State University in Denver. When they were looking to expand their Aerospace Engineering curriculum and build a new building they reached out directly to Lockheed Martin. LM came in and along with the school helped design the classrooms, labs, building, and curriculum for the program. Many of these students now have a direct path to jobs at LM or similar firms as a result. Maybe this sort of thing is happening everywhere but it just struck me as what every school should be doing. Build your programs around what employers want, and then create well defined pathways for students to interact with these companies.
 
Colorado S14 said:
I did not attend UM, but Metro State University in Denver. When they were looking to expand their Aerospace Engineering curriculum and build a new building they reached out directly to Lockheed Martin. LM came in and along with the school helped design the classrooms, labs, building, and curriculum for the program. Many of these students now have a direct path to jobs at LM or similar firms as a result. Maybe this sort of thing is happening everywhere but it just struck me as what every school should be doing. Build your programs around what employers want, and then create well defined pathways for students to interact with these companies.
Click to expand...

A good strategy. The greatest issue becomes private corporations funding education in some capacity. Teaching, law enforcement, social workers and government workers will have a tough time if school funding becomes more dependent upon the private sector.
 
PDXGrizzly said:
Interesting. UM would do well to promote the technical and scientific majors that it has. In the Environmental community here in Portland, an earth science degree (biology, chemistry, natural resources, etc) from Montana is well regarded. The long term survival of the school may hinge on the ability to market these fields and expand these departments.
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes. Yes. I would also add "Health Sciences" degrees such as Health and Human Performance (HHP), and Communicative Sciences and Disorders (CSD). Both prepare students for professional schools that place them in careers that are/will be in need as the baby boomer generation and their kids age. An occupational therapy (OT) program would only enhance the health sciences options for students looking at UM. Let's hope they continue to recognize this and are able to make strides towards offering students a full spectrum of health sciences options.
 
Colorado S14 said:
I was reading through the thread from the Idaho fan asking about MSU and someone mentioned that Montana needs to refocus on it's historically best regarded schools within the university to find success. I know that the Journalism, English, Forestry, and Law Schools within the University have historically been very well regarded, but, the college/university model is changing and if Montana, or any school, does not change with it they will lose out. I tracked down a very interesting article from the Wall Street Journal that I read earlier in the year which discussed this. I encourage everyone to read, it is very interesting.

U.S. Colleges Are Separating Into Winners and Losers
Schools that struggle to prepare students for success losing ground; ‘The shake-out is coming’
https://www.worcester.edu/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=11993
*The article on WSJ.com requires a subscription, this link will open as a .pdf.
Click to expand...

Feel free to source me. :)
 
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
 
PDXGrizzly said:
Interesting. UM would do well to promote the technical and scientific majors that it has. In the Environmental community here in Portland, an earth science degree (biology, chemistry, natural resources, etc) from Montana is well regarded. The long term survival of the school may hinge on the ability to market these fields and expand these departments.
Click to expand...

So true. The best thing UM could do is require 4 semesters of science with no more than one 100 level course. Expect students to have at least 9 credits of science 200 level or better.
They should also be completing college-level calculus. Taking those statistics classes, computer programming courses and economics classes.
You can still become an English major, but you should be exposed to math and science along the way. There are students who never set foot in the math building or a biology lab at UM.
 
grizpsych said:
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
Click to expand...

Wowza. With all the emphasis on STEM from K-12, how is this possible? You mean to tell me that shoving STEM down students' throats isn't best for every student?!?!
 
MTGRZ said:
grizpsych said:
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
Click to expand...

Wowza. With all the emphasis on STEM from K-12, how is this possible? You mean to tell me that shoving STEM down students' throats isn't best for every student?!?!
Click to expand...
Ha. Well, that is certainly one way to look at it.
 
grizpsych said:
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
Click to expand...

Please tell me you’re kidding. My kids have been doing this for a few years. Just wow!
 
AZDoc said:
grizpsych said:
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
Click to expand...

Please tell me you’re kidding. My kids have been doing this for a few years. Just wow!
Click to expand...
I wish I could tell you I'm kidding.
 
grizpsych said:
AZDoc said:
grizpsych said:
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
Click to expand...

Please tell me you’re kidding. My kids have been doing this for a few years. Just wow!
Click to expand...
I wish I could tell you I'm kidding.
Click to expand...
Some of this has got to be on the Schools (and university) for failing these kids up, right? For example, how are they even in your class if they can't do the basic functions necessary for that class? Are most schools now worried about failing kids because it would lessen their graduation numbers (and most likely therefore potential funding) or am I just theorizing up the wrong tree(which wouldn't be the first time I've been completely off base)?
 
This whole STEM stuff is trendy right now... but, it is not for everyone and not likely an academic pathway for many student athletes. How many of us "college educated" graduates have ever had to factor polynomials or do quadratic equations or solve F of X solutions since we took that stuff? Establish separate curricular pathways for those who dig those classes and another pathway for those who don't, and don't cram science where science doesn't belong.
 
Colorado S14 said:
I did not attend UM, but Metro State University in Denver. When they were looking to expand their Aerospace Engineering curriculum and build a new building they reached out directly to Lockheed Martin. LM came in and along with the school helped design the classrooms, labs, building, and curriculum for the program. Many of these students now have a direct path to jobs at LM or similar firms as a result. Maybe this sort of thing is happening everywhere but it just struck me as what every school should be doing. Build your programs around what employers want, and then create well defined pathways for students to interact with these companies.
Click to expand...

South Carolina has created a system that serves businesses by 'first, by locating a manufacturer interested in opening plants whose workers will be trained PRIOR to their entering the job by a consortium of professional educators, the manufacturing personnel, and local officials. So far, in my midlands area, Mercedes Benz, Volvo. BMW, Husqvarna, Deere have all opened plants. Yet, even here, with terrible schools, some of the people the state is trying to reach out to are seemingly incapable of learning anything. Plants are always looking to hire but even with unemployment in some areas here hovering at 9%+ they cannot find properly trained or willing to train people. I look at it as a failure so gigantic in American life that words are hard to describe. Yes, the age of slavery here is something very much a part of day to day life but that is a two way street and failures are plenty. I look at schools k-12 that are truly bad and the state will spend no money on them because they don't want higher taxes. So, you can train plant workers and manufactures till your blue in the face, if the desire is not there, it is for nought. Trump Country at its worst. The major universities, on the other hand are around average while the many private colleges are stellar. But, they are more in the UM mode. Liberal Arts, Law, Teacher Education. UM offers a valid education but reading some of the posts, it seems some would prefer a trade school. Demands of manufactures and others change, but basic education does not.
 
GrizLA said:
Colorado S14 said:
I did not attend UM, but Metro State University in Denver. When they were looking to expand their Aerospace Engineering curriculum and build a new building they reached out directly to Lockheed Martin. LM came in and along with the school helped design the classrooms, labs, building, and curriculum for the program. Many of these students now have a direct path to jobs at LM or similar firms as a result. Maybe this sort of thing is happening everywhere but it just struck me as what every school should be doing. Build your programs around what employers want, and then create well defined pathways for students to interact with these companies.
Click to expand...

South Carolina has created a system that serves businesses by 'first, by locating a manufacturer interested in opening plants whose workers will be trained PRIOR to their entering the job by a consortium of professional educators, the manufacturing personnel, and local officials. So far, in my midlands area, Mercedes Benz, Volvo. BMW, Husqvarna, Deere have all opened plants. Yet, even here, with terrible schools, some of the people the state is trying to reach out to are seemingly incapable of learning anything. Plants are always looking to hire but even with unemployment in some areas here hovering at 9%+ they cannot find properly trained or willing to train people. I look at it as a failure so gigantic in American life that words are hard to describe. Yes, the age of slavery here is something very much a part of day to day life but that is a two way street and failures are plenty. I look at schools k-12 that are truly bad and the state will spend no money on them because they don't want higher taxes. So, you can train plant workers and manufactures till your blue in the face, if the desire is not there, it is for nought. Trump Country at its worst. The major universities, on the other hand are around average while the many private colleges are stellar. But, they are more in the UM mode. Liberal Arts, Law, Teacher Education. UM offers a valid education but reading some of the posts, it seems some would prefer a trade school. Demands of manufactures and others change, but basic education does not.
Click to expand...

South Carolina is too small for a republic and too large for an insane asylum.
 
grizpsych said:
I would like to point out one major factor that is lost in this current debate. Namely, more students than ever are ill prepared for the rigors of University scholarship. Thus, Universities are continually have to teach/re-teach information that should have been learned in high school and even grade school.

I'm a 39 year old professor that still has to teach students mathematical order of operations in order to then teach them introductory statistics. PEMDAS is something they should have learned by fifth grade.

This re-education cost both students and universities much more that in previous generations.
Click to expand...

Which anniversary of your 39th is it Mr. Benny?
 
The U.S. educational system needs an overhaul. I suggest Germany's model, of which I only understand has a 2 track system that evaluates kids in elementary as to aptitudes, interests, abilities, etc., and puts them on either a professional or vocational track. I think China, Japan, etc., are similar. The "Renaissance man" idea is caput & has been for some time; the U.S. is 100 yrs behind in knowing this.

I'm sure Germany, et al., are well aware of the need for basic skills, abilities in, well, "reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic. Our public schools are failing, for the most part, to develop mastery in these basic abilities. There should be no need for remediation at higher levels of education.

Americans should adopt what other countries do, esp. Germany, et al., into its educational system. This is what I mean by overhaul.
 
As this discussion is about UM promoting degrees that increase success of being employed, I vote for the College of Humanities & Sciences. I, like most people, don't work in my degree (Microbiology), but it has always opened the door to me finding work and then allowing me to choose a number of different paths within my work. Very happy with my degree.
 
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