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Tinks: The Football Jinx?

C

citygriz

Well-known member
We all know about the legendary Montana coaching tree in basketball: Heathcote, Brandenberg, Montgomery, Morrill, Taylor, Krysko, Tinks. And well we should. Even USA Today has taken note, and it's a point of pride with all of us Griz basketball fans. And why? All of them have gone on predominantly to great success.

But less well known is our football coaching tree: Mick Dennehy (Utah State); Joe Glenn (Wyoming); Bobby Hauck (UNLV.) And why? All failed. You might say, our football tree never bore fruit.

Which leaves me wondering: Could Tinks fall vitctim to the football jinx? Here's why.

All three football coaches left for programs that I consider "underdog" programs. Dennehy went to a school that was number three (behind Utah and BYU) in a small state, where the school then had no conference affiliation and basketball was the more popular program. Glenn went to Laramie, Wyoming, a tough place to recruit to, for sure. And Hauck went to a basketball school with poor football facilities, and little football tradition. All got the money they couldn't get at Montana, but all took on challenges and handicaps that eventually doomed them.

Has Tinks done that at Oregon State? Boy, I hope not; Tinks will always bleed maroon and silver, with a little copper mixed in. But I am concerned for him, for a couple of reasons.

First, his best recruit so far has been his son; second best, the son of assistant coach Stephebn Thompson, Stephen Thompson Jr. That Tres broke his wrist and has missed several games likely accounts for a 3-6 record so far this season, with two of those losses being at home (Lamar and Fresno State) and one of the wins coming against Southern Oregon, the kind of cupcake DeCuire has avoided with his scheduling.

But, second, as with the schools that our football coaches moved on to, the Oregon State is definitely a bridesmaid in its own conference, especially with the resurgence of UCLA. Mix in Arizona, with its national profile; Oregon, with the Phil Knight money and the Nike imprimatur; Washington, with one of the most high-profile freshmen in the country and its inherent recruiting advantages in the talent-rich Seattle area; and even USC, with its incredible facilities (which I just witnessed first hand) and its location in the talent-rich So Cal market, and I begin to wonder: Can Tinks can overcome the incredible advantages all those schools have over Corvallis Oregon? Is Oregon State doomed to a middle-of-the-conference status forever and ever.

Three and six, and not even into conference yet. Just sayin'. Hope I'm wrong.
 
The Football Illuminati claim that any problems can be solved by "contract extensions." An easy fix, really.
 
UMGriz75 said:
The Football Illuminati claim that any problems can be solved by "contract extensions." An easy fix, really.
Click to expand...

For all the crap you've been taking on here...I must say this was funny! :lol:
 
citay said:
We all know about the legendary Montana coaching tree in basketball: Heathcote, Brandenberg, Montgomery, Morrill, Taylor, Krysko, Tinks. And well we should. Even USA Today has taken note, and it's a point of pride with all of us Griz basketball fans. And why? All of them have gone on predominantly to great success.

But less well known is our football coaching tree: Mick Dennehy (Utah State); Joe Glenn (Wyoming); Bobby Hauck (UNLV.) And why? All failed. You might say, our football tree never bore fruit.

Which leaves me wondering: Could Tinks fall vitctim to the football jinx? Here's why.

All three football coaches left for programs that I consider "underdog" programs. Dennehy went to a school that was number three (behind Utah and BYU) in a small state, where the school then had no conference affiliation and basketball was the more popular program. Glenn went to Laramie, Wyoming, a tough place to recruit to, for sure. And Hauck went to a basketball school with poor football facilities, and little football tradition. All got the money they couldn't get at Montana, but all took on challenges and handicaps that eventually doomed them.

Has Tinks done that at Oregon State? Boy, I hope not; Tinks will always bleed maroon and silver, with a little copper mixed in. But I am concerned for him, for a couple of reasons.

First, his best recruit so far has been his son; second best, the son of assistant coach Stephebn Thompson, Stephen Thompson Jr. That Tres broke his wrist and has missed several games likely accounts for a 3-6 record so far this season, with two of those losses being at home (Lamar and Fresno State) and one of the wins coming against Southern Oregon, the kind of cupcake DeCuire has avoided with his scheduling.

But, second, as with the schools that our football coaches moved on to, the Oregon State is definitely a bridesmaid in its own conference, especially with the resurgence of UCLA. Mix in Arizona, with its national profile; Oregon, with the Phil Knight money and the Nike imprimatur; Washington, with one of the most high-profile freshmen in the country and its inherent recruiting advantages in the talent-rich Seattle area; and even USC, with its incredible facilities (which I just witnessed first hand) and its location in the talent-rich So Cal market, and I begin to wonder: Can Tinks can overcome the incredible advantages all those schools have over Corvallis Oregon? Is Oregon State doomed to a middle-of-the-conference status forever and ever.

Three and six, and not even into conference yet. Just sayin'. Hope I'm wrong.
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OSU playing three Montana kids a fair amount. Tres, Dane Muller and Kendall Manuel (both from Billings Skyview). Muller walked on at UM Tinkle's last year but I don't think was really recruited here or MSU. Manuel a guard that had D1 schools looking but again not sure if MSU or UM offered him. While kid of neat to see these kids playing in the PAC 12, I don't think it bodes that well for OSU once it hits conference season.
 
I don't think you have to wait for Pac12 games for results...OSU is 3-7 with wins against such powerhouses as Prairie View A&M, Texas San Antonio and Southern Oregon....loses have come from Lamar, Nevada, Tulsa, Fresno St, Mississippi St, Charlotte and Savannah State....none of those are "good loses" as they should be beating those teams...I am very surprised that their season so far has gone so bad, especially after the way they surprised everyone last year....of course the loss of Gary Payton III is hard to overcome...
 
The near record losses to Syracuse and the other team I can't recall, left some questions that were never really addressed. Tinks was right for UM, at the time, but, UM was not ready for the Big Time. The new UM coach is dealing with that..OSU is not keeping up with the top tier of the PAC 12...even USC, that some here said was "average" is undefeated..
 
Good post Citay. Similar questions could be placed on Utah (6-2) with losses to butler, Xavier, and the somewhat surprisingly small victory margins against Utah Valley and MT state.

2016-17 PAC-12 MEN'S BASKETBALL PRESEASON MEDIA POLL

TEAM (first-place votes) POINTS
1. Oregon (23) 320 points
2. Arizona (4) 298
3. UCLA 259
4. California 209
5. Colorado 199
6. Washington 167
7. USC 163
8. Utah 142
9. Oregon State 122
10. Stanford 119
11. Arizona State 78
12. Washington State 30
 
Proud Griz Man said:
Good post Citay. Similar questions could be placed on Utah (6-2) with losses to butler, Xavier, and the somewhat surprisingly small victory margins against Utah Valley and MT state.

2016-17 PAC-12 MEN'S BASKETBALL PRESEASON MEDIA POLL

TEAM (first-place votes) POINTS
1. Oregon (23) 320 points
2. Arizona (4) 298
3. UCLA 259
4. California 209
5. Colorado 199
6. Washington 167
7. USC 163
8. Utah 142
9. Oregon State 122
10. Stanford 119
11. Arizona State 78
12. Washington State 30
Click to expand...

Great to see the Griz got pounded by preseason #12 in the PAC...ouch
 
AZDoc said:
Proud Griz Man said:
Good post Citay. Similar questions could be placed on Utah (6-2) with losses to butler, Xavier, and the somewhat surprisingly small victory margins against Utah Valley and MT state.

2016-17 PAC-12 MEN'S BASKETBALL PRESEASON MEDIA POLL

TEAM (first-place votes) POINTS
1. Oregon (23) 320 points
2. Arizona (4) 298
3. UCLA 259
4. California 209
5. Colorado 199
6. Washington 167
7. USC 163
8. Utah 142
9. Oregon State 122
10. Stanford 119
11. Arizona State 78
12. Washington State 30
Click to expand...

Great to see the Griz got pounded by preseason #12 in the PAC...ouch
Click to expand...


Why great?
 
citay said:
AZDoc said:
Proud Griz Man said:
Good post Citay. Similar questions could be placed on Utah (6-2) with losses to butler, Xavier, and the somewhat surprisingly small victory margins against Utah Valley and MT state.

2016-17 PAC-12 MEN'S BASKETBALL PRESEASON MEDIA POLL

TEAM (first-place votes) POINTS
1. Oregon (23) 320 points
2. Arizona (4) 298
3. UCLA 259
4. California 209
5. Colorado 199
6. Washington 167
7. USC 163
8. Utah 142
9. Oregon State 122
10. Stanford 119
11. Arizona State 78
12. Washington State 30
Click to expand...

Great to see the Griz got pounded by preseason #12 in the PAC...ouch
Click to expand...


Why great?
Click to expand...

Was a sarcastic great. I do think the tourney was part of the issue, but was just commenting on how bad WSU is supposed to be in the conference.
 
Anybody else here worried about Tinks? The Beavers are now 4-13. Without Tres, still injured, they are threat to go 0-for-the Pac 12. Even with Tres playing earlier in the year, they lost to Nevada 58-83. Without him, they lost to Portland. Portland!!! This is not good folks. Questions: Does Tres take a medical year? (Little point returning now.) Could the Beavers beat our own Griz? (Neutral court, I'd bet the Griz, even without the cavalry.) Can Tinks recruit against all those other Pac 12 schools? (It's gonna be tough.) Will DeCuire emerge as an upgrade to our program? Stay tuned.
 
...worried like hell for tinks...
...his omnipresence and personality...
...get him a few years..but he needs players...

... :agree:...
 
I think the lesson learned is "The Program" matters a hell of a lot more than the coach. Montana (and now NDSU) has/had National prominence, an amazing stadium (by 1-AA standards), great crowd support and even occasional ESPN games.
It doesn't matter WHO coaches at NDSU or Alabama next year, I think it is safe to say that they will both be very good teams.
I believe the one coach who made the worst decision (for UM and himself) was Joe Glenn. I think he thought he could springboard Wyoming into the Nebraska job (his dream job) with some success there, but that failed miserably. He was the last coach I was really behind 100%. He could recruit good players and win (39-6 record) without the thugs here. But without the history, the stadium,the fan-base he couldn't/can't win since leaving here. He's only had one winning record (7-5) in 10 years since leaving Montana. I'm convinced, UM would have done better over these years had he stayed.
 
Zirg said:
I think the lesson learned is "The Program" matters a hell of a lot more than the coach. Montana (and now NDSU) has/had National prominence, an amazing stadium (by 1-AA standards), great crowd support and even occasional ESPN games.
It doesn't matter WHO coaches at NDSU or Alabama next year, I think it is safe to say that they will both be very good teams.
Click to expand...
I've mentioned this, that "programs" at least in football do seem to be more important than who the individual coach is. But, that obviously has to be qualified. "Programs" attract good coaches at the outset.

The problem pops up when changing play levels. Montana is good example on both the football and basketball side. Crossovers or drop downs do well; promoting up hasn't worked well; Hugh Davidson in football or Lou Rocheleau in basketball. And, it hasn't worked well on the football side at any level. I thought Joe Glenn had it so good at Montana that it would have been his retirement job, a Bear Bryant kind of story. On the other hand, he's still probably better off financially with the road he took (Memo to QB Club, see, Ash and Choate contracts).

Basketball is such a different beast, Montana turns out to be a great "proving" ground. Tinks took on a challenge. It's a long range deal for him. He's got a losing record right now, but its a different kind of losing record than, say our recent FB record. Everybody sees what kind of coach he is, and nobody is criticizing his coaching competence or style. He's got to build the team. He's got attendance up by nearly 50% -- he's got fans (and students!) taking notice. Basketball is, at bottom line, so much more of a skill sport for every player -- its one reason BB kids can sometimes transition to FB, but not the other way around. A successful BB player has to be, at the end of the day, a better athlete, and coaches are always recruiting from smaller pools -- inherent in the differences in the games.

Everyone I've spoken to at OSU (all four!) offer a long-term perspective. Everyone understands the problems that Tinks faces, but they all agree 1) he's got the drive, 2) he's got the talent, 3) he's got the personality -- he's a coach building a program from scratch, and even with the losses, everyone likes what they are seeing and seem to be in for the long haul. Like Jud at UM, win or lose he's brought some electricity into the program.

And, as to the "two-fer." Tres is a big hit. The Beavs have something of a star and a terrific personality; people are already looking forward to him becoming asst coach. Injuries can devastate any promising career, but Tres has never struck me as fragile in any way, he's really put some muscle on the past couple of years and getting more to his Dad's "Mack Truck quality frame," and so hopefully can get back on the court sooner rather than later.
 
Zirg said:
I believe the one coach who made the worst decision (for UM and himself) was Joe Glenn. ... I'm convinced, UM would have done better over these years had he stayed.
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Indeed!
 
UMGriz75 said:
.... Basketball is such a different beast, Montana turns out to be a great "proving" ground. Tinks took on a challenge. It's a long range deal for him. He's got a losing record right now, but its a different kind of losing record than, say our recent FB record. Everybody sees what kind of coach he is, and nobody is criticizing his coaching competence or style.
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Getting my head around why, this season, he's been doing so poorly, while last year, OSU played in PAC-12 playoffs, with what, I understand, were volunteer players from the student body! Maybe injuries are the difference. Good to hear of the bold statement.
 
Sounds like recruiting hasn't been what you'd expect after the surprising success with limited talent the first year then a good season last year. Gary Payton II seems to be a huge loss but I know they touted Tres' class as a very good one. Tres obviously out now but they had a big man frosh last year that looked like a guy that should come on (Eubanks) and the other asst. coach's son (Stephen Thompson II). Still can't get my arms around them having 3 Montana kids at one point when Griz and Cats can't seem to get more than one or two into their programs.
 
That was a good comment earlier in this thread, about the difficulty coaches have moving up to a new level. It actually reminded that with DeCuire we have just the opposite case--a talented young coach who is actually moving DOWN a level--from a major to a mid-major.The result? He's recruited, scheduled and coached to a his own higher level, not the one we're accustomed to.

The greatest indication of this so far is the recruiting. Tinks was a very good recruiter, but not to the level of DeCuire. We got some great guys with Tinks, but also some stretches, and some duds. With DeCuire, I haven't seen one false note, at least not yet. And we're talking now about eight on the current roster, three more next year, and one committed and another big-time recruit definitely interested for the 2018 class. That's thirteen guys DeCuire has either signed or has on the hook, and the talent level is unquestionably the best in the history of our basketball program. Maybe this is what we were hoping for with Kennedy, an upper level guy moving down to mid-major, but that was different. Kennedy was at the fading end of his career, while DeCuire is a rising star. One consolation for us: If and when he moves on, DeCuire will have left the cupboard full, the program strong.
 
citay said:
That was a good comment earlier in this thread, about the difficulty coaches have moving up to a new level. It actually reminded that with DeCuire we have just the opposite case--a talented young coach who is actually moving DOWN a level--from a major to a mid-major.The result? He's recruited, scheduled and coached to a his own higher level, not the one we're accustomed to.

The greatest indication of this so far is the recruiting. Tinks was a very good recruiter, but not to the level of DeCuire. We got some great guys with Tinks, but also some stretches, and some duds. With DeCuire, I haven't seen one false note, at least not yet. And we're talking now about eight on the current roster, three more next year, and one committed and another big-time recruit definitely interested for the 2018 class. That's thirteen guys DeCuire has either signed or has on the hook, and the talent level is unquestionably the best in the history of our basketball program. Maybe this is what we were hoping for with Kennedy, an upper level guy moving down to mid-major, but that was different. Kennedy was at the fading end of his career, while DeCuire is a rising star. One consolation for us: If and when he moves on, DeCuire will have left the cupboard full, the program strong.
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Right on. Well said! :clap:
 
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