Is it time to start evaluating DeCuire?

Griz Nation just clamored for the removal of a football coach, who had a winning record, but many thought his teams were not improving, and that his recruiting was potentially to one dimensional (offense - specifically WR). Boosters pressured AD Kent Haslam into making a change and bringing back a Griz coaching legend. 12 months prior to his removal, Kent Haslam started to evaluate Stitt. Is there a precedence for basketball to do the same?

I see parallels here. This team does not seem to be improving year to year, despite what most of consider some of the best recruits we've ever had here. I would argue that although the recruits are great looking, the majority of them are the same type of player. Poor shooters, that can play some good defense, but can't hit a free throw when it is needed. We do not seem to be recruiting Brian Qvale, LarryK, Derrick Pope type players. Sure the game has changed but even when we had Marty Breunig this was a much better team, with a much better offense. Look at how NBA teams are starting to play Ball with the Lakers because of his poor shooting.

It would seem to me that free throw shooting, and poor field goal shooting are items that can be coached, yet we have not seen much improvement. I wonder how much the loss of some assistants during the off season has also hurt this team. If Stitt didn't get a free pass, then neither should DeCuire, and perhaps it is time to start evaluating his performance as coach, and yes that will not be a popular idea. When we had Tinkle, his teams were not great in the beginning, but as he coached, they got better - IMO we are seeing the opposite with DeCuire's teams, and this is not a good trend.

With Tinkle's struggles at OSU, will he become available in a year or two? And if he is, would he come back to Montana?

IMO this team needs to quickly improve, and shooting is where it begins. I'd make them all shoot 300 Free Throws every day for example (the number I'm just throwing out there). The fact is whatever, and however this team is practicing needs to change. The game plans need to change. And we need to recruit better overall players, not just athletic guards/small forward types.

And one more thing.....I'd like to see DeCuire and the Grizzlies succeed, but why is his performance not being scrutinized more? The answer lies with one group of people - the boosters. The boosters don't support basketball as much as football, so their interest level is down, and hence their financial influence doesn't have as much as impact. Change may or not be needed if regard to coaches like DeCuire, and Stitt - but one thing that needs to change is boosters determining the future of our teams.

These are all good points and its a conversation that should be happening. The last 26 seconds of the first half last night is emblematic of so many problems. Someone made the comment (GrizLA?) last night that TD was overcoaching the kids and after thinking about it I think that was a spot on observation. There are times to coach them in game and times to let them play, I'm not certain TD has figured that out yet.

Winning is hard - in anything you do. I heard (maybe in an article) that Decuire showed all the times the last few years the Griz have been right in it, swinging with the big boys, but weren't able to put them away. I think it is almost time for it to be evaluated "Why" haven't they put those teams away? What happened at Penn State and Stanford last night has been par for the course the last 5 / 6 years. Something needs to change to sway those results. Doing the same thing over and over and over expecting different results isn't working.

The team is a work in progress. Don't be judging them where they are today. Judge them by where we are in February. It takes awhile for the team to function as a team. We are also playing up with tougher schedules than we have had in the past with a lot of new contributors that we will need during the season. IMO Travis is doing just fine and the sky isn't falling.

If the shots are not going down you aren't going to win regardless of what you do. Defense can carry you only so far. The offense has to step up. The most frustrating thing for me is the free throw percentage. I know that will come up also but so far it has been horrendous and a point of contention with everyone.

The Griz were 39-15 in conference during Decuire's three completed seasons. He has also gone to extremely challenging preseason schedules, How many of Tinkle's teams won these games or even were in them towards the end of the game? I do not think you begin advocating a head coach position change at this point. One result of this could be a return to pud preseason schedules that do very little to prepare the team for conference. Comparisons with the football program really don't apply. The football team plays at the FCS level and too often schedules walkover preseason games. I think we are vey fortunate to have a coach like Travis who has set lofty program goals. There are going to be some bumps along the way but I am all in with his approach. :thumb:

GrizWhiz said:

The Griz were 39-15 in conference during Decuire's three completed seasons. He has also gone to extremely challenging preseason schedules, How many of Tinkle's teams won these games or even were in them towards the end of the game? I do not think you begin advocating a head coach position change at this point. One result of this could be a return to pud preseason schedules that do very little to prepare the team for conference. Comparisons with the football program really don't apply. The football team plays at the FCS level and too often schedules walkover preseason games. I think we are vey fortunate to have a coach like Travis who has set lofty program goals. There are going to be some bumps along the way but I am all in with his approach. :thumb:

Click to expand...

Agreed - but sooner or later this needs to produce results, right? If the men end up having another "meh" year and don't make the tourney (but hey, we hung close with the big boys!), I believe it is fair to ask, "Is this working?"

*edit to add* Don't get me wrong, I love that we're playing the big boys and it is great that we're staying "close," but we've been "close" for a few years now. I'd like to see some of these "L's" go to "W's" (as I'm sure Decuire and the team would as well). Krysko did it against Colorado State (Ranked around 20th at the time (I believe), then beat #17 Stanford, then won a game in the Big Dance, and then hung tough against Boston College for 2/3rds of the game in the next round.

Tinkle beat Stanford (I think), UCLA and Oregon State - granted he didn't win a game in the Big Dance (trounced by Wisconsin and Syracuse - lost by....5(?) to New Mexico when our best shooter had probably his worst shooting night as a Griz).

Decuire has so far: Hung tough to Gonzaga and Washington - lost down the stretch, missed free-throws could have swung the games. Cal: lost in double-overtime(?) again, missed free-throws down the stretch. Within 1 point of Penn State (after leading for a portion of the game) with about 4 minutes left - missed free throws (AGAIN!) and poor shooting down the stretch. Beat Pitt - great road win, against a team who has won 96% of their games played in their building during the month of November. Questionable free-throw shooting throughout, but made 'em down the stretch and shot pretty consistently throughout the game.

If some of these turn into victories, great. I believe we should keep punching up, regardless, but if we have another year (or two?) not making the tourney and losing games like this, I think it is fair to wonder what is going on. For the record, I'll be more concerned if this is happening next season - since this year we have eight(?) new players.

MissoulaMarinerFan said:

GrizWhiz said:

The Griz were 39-15 in conference during Decuire's three completed seasons. He has also gone to extremely challenging preseason schedules, How many of Tinkle's teams won these games or even were in them towards the end of the game? I do not think you begin advocating a head coach position change at this point. One result of this could be a return to pud preseason schedules that do very little to prepare the team for conference. Comparisons with the football program really don't apply. The football team plays at the FCS level and too often schedules walkover preseason games. I think we are vey fortunate to have a coach like Travis who has set lofty program goals. There are going to be some bumps along the way but I am all in with his approach. :thumb:

Click to expand...

Agreed - but sooner or later this needs to produce results, right? If the men end up having another "meh" year and don't make the tourney (but hey, we hung close with the big boys!), I believe it is fair to ask, "Is this working?"

*edit to add* Don't get me wrong, I love that we're playing the big boys and it is great that we're staying "close," but we've been "close" for a few years now. I'd like to see some of these "L's" go to "W's" (as I'm sure Decuire and the team would as well). Krysko did it against Colorado State (Ranked around 20th at the time (I believe), then beat #17 Stanford, then won a game in the Big Dance, and then hung tough against Boston College for 2/3rds of the game in the next round.

Tinkle beat Stanford (I think), UCLA and Oregon State - granted he didn't win a game in the Big Dance (trounced by Wisconsin and Syracuse - lost by....5(?) to New Mexico when our best shooter had probably his worst shooting night as a Griz).

Decuire has so far: Hung tough to Gonzaga and Washington - lost down the stretch, missed free-throws could have swung the games. Cal: lost in double-overtime(?) again, missed free-throws down the stretch. Within 1 point of Penn State (after leading for a portion of the game) with about 4 minutes left - missed free throws (AGAIN!) and poor shooting down the stretch. Beat Pitt - great road win, against a team who has won 96% of their games played in their building during the month of November. Questionable free-throw shooting throughout, but made 'em down the stretch and shot pretty consistently throughout the game.

If some of these turn into victories, great. I believe we should keep punching up, regardless, but if we have another year (or two?) not making the tourney and losing games like this, I think it is fair to wonder what is going on. For the record, I'll be more concerned if this is happening next season - since this year we have eight(?) new players.

Click to expand...

The recurring theme there, though, is missing shots to put it away. THAT is coaching. I agree great schedules, but holy crap boys, someone needs to help their shooting. If not coaches...whom?

AZDoc said:

The recurring theme there, though, is missing shots to put it away. THAT is coaching. I agree great schedules, but holy crap boys, someone needs to help their shooting. If not coaches...whom?

Click to expand...

Yep. I feel like Tinks had trouble with it his last couple years too - I don't believe some of these guys just forgot how to hit free throws from high school. Something isn't translating.

Hate to say it, "I am seriously concerned". I really am not close enough to the program to know exactly what is wrong, and what needs to be done. I do know that DeCuire is very intelligent and intense. More often than not, DeCuire's teams struggle with shooting consistency, and it dearly cost this team many Ws. Bad shooting has become a pattern here. I really question, how is it that true shooters like Gfeller, and apparently Bevens, look so damn good shooting, but the results just are not there? Seriously, both have absolutely beautiful shots, and are poster child's for pure shooting. What happens to these pure shooters under Travis? They seem to fold.

I really don't know why. I honestly feel, his intensity and expectations regarding overall players from his perimeter players, may work against him and his team, when it comes to utilizing the ultimate shooters. Correct me if I am wrong here, but it seems like "shooters" just are not comfortable under him. Is he applying too much pressure for them to have an overall well rounded game? Is he not properly utilizing the better shooters?

I honestly feel, it might be wise for DeCuire to loosen up a little, and let the players just ball out, now and then. As for the true shooters, show them that you are committed to them. Be willing to take a bullet for them. Meaning, be willing to let them grow, and give them enough quality shots (unforced shots) to get in sync. Even if the shots are not falling, don't penalize them by riding them on the pine, providing their attitude and efforts are great. Sorry, but these shooters absolutely are no use when they are consistently on the pine.

In Bevens case, tell him he was brought here for his shooting talent and the team is going to commit to getting him 5 to 10 open 3's per game, and not be afraid to put the shots up. Show the talented shooters that you are committed to them!!! Show the same kind of commitment to them as you have shown in Oguine and Rorie. Cherish the shooters every bit as much as you do the overall well rounded athletic players.

I honestly feel, if Travis would prove to them, he has confidence in them, the team would start showing better results in terms of improved shooting percentages. Travis, please let your shooters do just that. Commit yourself and your team to getting these guys a significant number of shots each game!!!! Let them know, their role is important and safe, even when the shots are not falling. Loosen up the reigns for these kind of players. Trust me, good things can and will happen.

Fair questions. Feature story in today's Missoula Independent provides some insight on DeCuire and his approach this season:

http://missoulanews.com/news/coach-travis-decuire-has-the-montana-men-s-basketball-team/article_02ca8b3a-d531-11e7-be39-27b52e5143b7.html

mtgrizrule said:

Hate to say it, "I am seriously concerned". I really am not close enough to the program to know exactly what is wrong, and what needs to be done. I do know that DeCuire is very intelligent and intense. More often than not, DeCuire's teams struggle with shooting consistency, and it dearly cost this team many Ws. Bad shooting has become a pattern here. I really question, how is it that true shooters like Gfeller, and apparently Bevens, look so damn good shooting, but the results just are not there? Seriously, both have absolutely beautiful shots, and are poster child's for pure shooting. What happens to these pure shooters under Travis? They seem to fold.

I really don't know why. I honestly feel, his intensity and expectations regarding overall players from his perimeter players, may work against him and his team, when it comes to utilizing the ultimate shooters. Correct me if I am wrong here, but it seems like "shooters" just are not comfortable under him. Is he applying too much pressure for them to have an overall well rounded game? Is he not properly utilizing the better shooters?

I honestly feel, it might be wise for DeCuire to loosen up a little, and let the players just ball out, now and then. As for the true shooters, show them that you are committed to them. Be willing to take a bullet for them. Meaning, be willing to let them grow, and give them enough quality shots (unforced shots) to get in sync. Even if the shots are not falling, don't penalize them by riding them on the pine, providing their attitude and efforts are great. Sorry, but these shooters absolutely are no use when they are consistently on the pine.

In Bevens case, tell him he was brought here for his shooting talent and the team is going to commit to getting him 5 to 10 open 3's per game, and not be afraid to put the shots up. Show the talented shooters that you are committed to them!!! Show the same kind of commitment to them as you have shown in Oguine and Rorie. Cherish the shooters every bit as much as you do the overall well rounded athletic players.

I honestly feel, if Travis would prove to them, he has confidence in them, the team would start showing better results in terms of improved shooting percentages. Travis, please let your shooters do just that. Commit yourself and your team to getting these guys a significant number of shots each game!!!! Let them know, their role is important and safe, even when the shots are not falling. Loosen up the reigns for these kind of players. Trust me, good things can and will happen.

Click to expand...

It seemed like Montgomery and Krisco were controlling also.
Worked for them.

Shooting has gone down hill since Jono left.

Yes, he should be evaluated. Especially if this team finishes below 4th in conference. The "just wait until next year" is getting old.

I agree about the tightness. Players seemed to tighten up and not be aggressive. Other than Oguine which player is really being aggressive and taking it to teams? Be disciplined and preach execution and then get out of the way. I listened to an interview with Coach Calipari and he said if his team didn't have 10 quality turnovers in the first half they were not being aggressive enough. He clarified what a quality turnover was but it was them knowing what they had to do and giving them the freedom to do it.

No, it is not time, but I'm sure the tiresome horse shit will begin to fly, anyway, like the coming winter snow with out any of its upside.

...absolutely...
...institution of learning...
...everyone is being evaluated...
...students professors administration coaches...

... :agree: ...

Fat Bruno said:

No, it is not time, but I'm sure the tiresome horse shit will begin to fly, anyway, like the coming winter snow with out any of its upside.

Click to expand...

Yo, Fat (San) Bruno. I agree with you. Nobody more critical of us last night than I, yet time to "evaluate" DeCuire? No way. Not when you have a backcourt like we have, and such good young players in the pipeline. Remember, nobody ever built a monument to a critic.

At the same time, it's fair to have standards, and to expect coaches to live up to those standards. In football, Montana has two: Get to the playoffs. Win the playoffs. (Hauck took a lot of guff for never winning the chipper.)

In basketball, we have two: Win the Big Sky. Get to the Big Dance. (No coach will be held to a third goal: Make it to the Sweet 16.) But the first two? Those are fair standards for a school like Montana. And if prospects dim for reaching those goals, a re-evaluation is called for.

Just..not yet.

citay said:

Fat Bruno said:

No, it is not time, but I'm sure the tiresome horse shit will begin to fly, anyway, like the coming winter snow with out any of its upside.

Click to expand...

Yo, Fat (San) Bruno. I agree with you. Nobody more critical of us last night than I, yet time to "evaluate" DeCuire? No way. Not when you have a backcourt like we have, and such good young players in the pipeline. Remember, nobody ever built a monument to a critic.

At the same time, it's fair to have standards, and to expect coaches to live up to those standards. In football, Montana has two: Get to the playoffs. Win the playoffs. (Hauck took a lot of guff for never winning the chipper.)

In basketball, we have two: Win the Big Sky. Get to the Big Dance. (No coach will be held to a third goal: Make it to the Sweet 16.) But the first two? Those are fair standards for a school like Montana. And if prospects dim for reaching those goals, a re-evaluation is called for.

Just..not yet.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with this. I was just making a comment that it's getting close to time, especially based on those first 2 standards. I like the team, really do, hate that we are short a player that was to contribute a lot this season due to a hip issue. It does NOT, though, refute the fact that they cannot shoot, period. They need coaching right now, and I'm not sure I'm seeing improvement as the season is progressing. I get that it's early, and basketball is especially a game of flow and rhythm. They, perhaps, haven't had any of that yet, but still, if only 1 or 2 were having shooting issues I'd just nod and smile. It's literally everyone. They also continue to have HUGE scoring droughts every single game. Again, a recurring theme for season upon season. This is a lot to do with coaching. There needs to be some change/improvement in my opinion, otherwise TD will be on a ticking clock. I do NOT want this, and think he is "this close", but in the now generation, how long does he have?

I like DeCuire and think he's a talented coach and good find/get for UM. His conference record has been good. He's attracted some very fun players to watch. Wish the teams had each been a bit better. Fine with others asking the questions, but I won't be spending my time analyzing those things.

Damn that DeCuire for not anticipating that Dorsey would get injured! Shape up, pal! :roll:

The shots will start dropping.