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Let's be real!

grizpsych

Well-known member
So far, experts say that around 3ish percent of people that get COVID-19 die. However, out of the people that have contracted the disease in the USA and have reached a conclusion (die versus recover), 48.00% have died. Died (2479), Recovered (2686), Total (5165)

Show me again where this disease has been over blown...
 
I've seen much different numbers from other "experts" in other countries and here. Pretty obvious at this point with a small sample size they are all premature until more people are tested. Also obvious that the elderly and those with other existing conditions like diabetes are at greater risk. Speculation is stupid now.
 
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
 
I think this virus has been in circulation longer than we have been informed. My family and went to Vegas at Thanksgiving. While there got sick and felt like I was hit by a truck. Once back home it took several days to kick the crud and had a horrible cough for a month.

As we all know Vegas get visitors from all over the planet. Once all was said and done my wife and daughter got “whatever” I had but luckily did no affect them as much as it did me.

Was it COVID-19? I am not sure but it seemed worse than the flu.

If I had to guess I would say a lot more people are or have been affected by it. Once we get more mass sample testing done I believe the overall numbers will be staggering.
 
OrgonGriz said:
I think this virus has been in circulation longer than we have been informed. My family and went to Vegas at Thanksgiving. While there got sick and felt like I was hit by a truck. Once back home it took several days to kick the crud and had a horrible cough for a month.

As we all know Vegas get visitors from all over the planet. Once all was said and done my wife and daughter got “whatever” I had but luckily did no affect them as much as it did me.

Was it COVID-19? I am not sure but it seemed worse than the flu.

If I had to guess I would say a lot more people are or have been affected by it. Once we get more mass sample testing done I believe the overall numbers will be staggering.

Testing Testing Testing
That's the key. Knowledge is Power!
 
OrgonGriz said:
I think this virus has been in circulation longer than we have been informed. My family and went to Vegas at Thanksgiving. While there got sick and felt like I was hit by a truck. Once back home it took several days to kick the crud and had a horrible cough for a month.

As we all know Vegas get visitors from all over the planet. Once all was said and done my wife and daughter got “whatever” I had but luckily did no affect them as much as it did me.

Was it COVID-19? I am not sure but it seemed worse than the flu.

If I had to guess I would say a lot more people are or have been affected by it. Once we get more mass sample testing done I believe the overall numbers will be staggering.

I’m not a conspiracy guy, but i agree that this has probably been around far longer than is publicly accepted. Went to Egypt for a bit in January and got a similar, freight-train type of cold when I got home. One of the people we visited was a State Department microbiologist in Cairo who believes it is likely what I had.
 
Hoops watcher said:
I've seen much different numbers from other "experts" in other countries and here. Pretty obvious at this point with a small sample size they are all premature until more people are tested. Also obvious that the elderly and those with other existing conditions like diabetes are at greater risk. Speculation is stupid now.

Aren’t the elderly and those with other existing conditions at greater risk for every virus and practically anything that can kill you? Not picking on you hoops, but people say that like it’s exclusive to coronavirus only.
 
OrgonGriz said:
I think this virus has been in circulation longer than we have been informed. My family and went to Vegas at Thanksgiving. While there got sick and felt like I was hit by a truck. Once back home it took several days to kick the crud and had a horrible cough for a month.

As we all know Vegas get visitors from all over the planet. Once all was said and done my wife and daughter got “whatever” I had but luckily did no affect them as much as it did me.

Was it COVID-19? I am not sure but it seemed worse than the flu.

If I had to guess I would say a lot more people are or have been affected by it. Once we get more mass sample testing done I believe the overall numbers will be staggering.

There are multiple viruses going around. I got hit in November as well. It wasnt corona.
 
Influenza A this year, is brutal and one of the worse seasonal flus in recent memory. I’ve talked with a couple of people that know they had it, and their description is what I’m reading here.
 
Best read I’ve found that does a much better job explaining what I was trying to:




The figure at the root of so much global angst about coronavirus is currently 4.7 per cent. That is the proportion of people, as of Sunday afternoon, who have died after being diagnosed with the virus — 32,137 out of the 685,623 who have tested positive for Covid-19 around the world.

It compares with a death rate of around 0.1 per cent for seasonal flu and 0.2 per cent for pneumonia in high-income countries. However, 4.7 per cent is not only changeable but frustratingly unreliable, both for governments seeking to calibrate their policy response and for citizens trying to gauge how much they should worry.

The proportion of people who have died from the disease varies strikingly from country to country. Researchers warn that there are so many uncertainties — not least over the true number of infections — that it remains almost impossible to draw firm conclusions about the death rate.


Mike Ryan, executive director of the World Health Organization’s health emergencies programme, has outlined four factors that might contribute to the differing mortality rates: who becomes infected, what stage the epidemic has reached in a country, how much testing a country is doing, and how well different healthcare systems are coping.

But there are other sources of doubt too, including how many coronavirus victims would have died of other causes if no pandemic had occurred. In a typical year, about 56m people die around the world — an average of about 153,000 per day.

Insufficient testing

Arguably the biggest unknown about Covid-19 is the true number of people worldwide who have contracted the virus. Without that information no accurate death rate can be calculated.

Many infected people will display either mild or no symptoms, and will remain absent from the data unless they are tested. Since resources are limited and different countries are testing to different extents, the size of the information gap varies from place to place.

John Ioannidis, a professor of epidemiology at Stanford University, has branded the data we have about the epidemic “utterly unreliable”.

“We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300,” he wrote last week. If thousands more people are surviving than we know about, then current mortality rate estimates are too high — perhaps by a large margin.

Bar chart of Tests per million as at Mar 25 2020 showing Coronavirus testing rates vary considerably
Researchers at the University of Hong Kong have estimated that, in Wuhan, where the pandemic began, the likely death rate was 1.4 per cent — much lower than the previous estimate of 4.5 per cent, which was calculated using official statistics on the region’s cases and deaths.

In the UK, where the government has been criticised for a slow initial response, only the most serious cases are being tested. In total 1,231 people have died out of 19,758 confirmed cases, giving a death rate of 6.2 per cent.

Rosalind Smyth, professor of child health at UCL, said official UK coronavirus data was “so misleading that it should not be used”. Using conservative estimates, the true number of people infected “is likely to be 5-10 times higher”, she said.

The age of people infected

Much depends on who gets infected, how old they are and whether they have underlying health conditions. It is well known that those who are older are more likely to become seriously ill and die. But Robin May, professor of infectious diseases at Birmingham university, notes: “There are 70-year-olds who are wheelchair bound and others who run miles every week.”

The WHO has also warned that younger people are “not invincible” and must take the virus seriously.

Editor’s note


The Financial Times is making key coronavirus coverage free to read to help everyone stay informed. Find the latest here.

Italy has to date been the worst affected country in Europe, with 10,023 deaths and 92,472 infections, giving a crude mortality rate of 10.8 per cent. But the average age of Italians who have tested positive is 62, and the vast majority of those who have died have been 60 or over.

“Italy has been a poster child for healthy people living into old age,” said Dr Ryan. “Unfortunately, in this case, having that older population may mean that the fatality rate appears higher because of the actual age distribution of the population.”

But different countries are also reporting cases and deaths in different ways: in Italy, Covid-19 is listed as the cause of death even if a patient was already ill and died from a combination of illnesses.

“Only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus,” said the scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health last week.

Spain’s national government simply lists how many people with confirmed cases of coronavirus have died and provides no extra information on any other medical conditions.

In South Korea about a third of confirmed cases were in people aged 30 or under
In South Korea about a third of confirmed cases were in people aged 30 or under © Chung Sung-Jun/Getty
In South Korea, which has a younger population than Italy, about a third of confirmed cases were in people aged 30 or under: 152 people have died so far out of 9,583 infections, giving a mortality rate of 1.6 per cent. In Germany, which has recorded 455 deaths, the majority of infections have occurred in people aged 15 to 59. Based on the available data, the country’s death rate is about 0.8 per cent, but this may also reflect its aggressive approach to testing people with milder symptoms.

Risk of death from other causes

In the UK, about 150,000 people die every year between January and March. To date, the vast majority of those who have died from Covid-19 in Britain have been aged 70 or older or had serious pre-existing health conditions.

What is not clear is how many of those deaths would have occurred anyway if the patients had not contracted Covid-19.

Speaking at a parliamentary hearing last week, Professor Neil Ferguson, director of the MRC Centre for Global Infectious Disease Analysis at Imperial College London, said it was not yet clear how many “excess deaths” caused by coronavirus there would be in the UK. However, he said the proportion of Covid-19 victims who would have died anyway could be “as many as half or two-thirds”.

What stage of the outbreak preparations begin

At what stage in the epidemic cycle a country begins to prepare its healthcare system is crucial.

If a healthcare system becomes overwhelmed, as happened in Italy and parts of China, the standard of care that patients receive is likely to fall. This is likely to increase the mortality rate.
 
HookedonGriz said:
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
Golly Gee Willikers I agree with Hooked!

We won't know for months or even years but I still maintain that looking back we'll see this whole thing was overblown in terms of lives lost.

I don't have a problem with people taking it seriously. It is serious and it is costing lives. I guess my frustration with some is the hypocrisy of the whole things. We value lives more than anything in this pandemic. That is fine. But a lost life is a lost life. And we all agree there are MANY things costing people lives in this country every day and we turn a blind eye. So I take issue to people calling out people like me who refuse to panic about this virus, all the while turning a blind eye to drug and alcohol deaths, homelessness, obesity, violent crimes, tobacco related deaths and drunk driving to name a few. They are all terrible.

So take this thing seriously. Try to end it asap. Do whatever necessary to save lives. But look at the big picture. Lives lost to this virus are no more important than lives lost a countless number of other ways.
 
ilovethecats said:
HookedonGriz said:
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
Golly Gee Willikers I agree with Hooked!

We won't know for months or even years but I still maintain that looking back we'll see this whole thing was overblown in terms of lives lost.

I don't have a problem with people taking it seriously. It is serious and it is costing lives. I guess my frustration with some is the hypocrisy of the whole things. We value lives more than anything in this pandemic. That is fine. But a lost life is a lost life. And we all agree there are MANY things costing people lives in this country every day and we turn a blind eye. So I take issue to people calling out people like me who refuse to panic about this virus, all the while turning a blind eye to drug and alcohol deaths, homelessness, obesity, violent crimes, tobacco related deaths and drunk driving to name a few. They are all terrible.

So take this thing seriously. Try to end it asap. Do whatever necessary to save lives. But look at the big picture. Lives lost to this virus are no more important than lives lost a countless number of other ways.

Wow we’ve had an “agreement” breakthrough. This virus is bringing people closer!
 
HookedonGriz said:
ilovethecats said:
HookedonGriz said:
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
Golly Gee Willikers I agree with Hooked!

We won't know for months or even years but I still maintain that looking back we'll see this whole thing was overblown in terms of lives lost.

I don't have a problem with people taking it seriously. It is serious and it is costing lives. I guess my frustration with some is the hypocrisy of the whole things. We value lives more than anything in this pandemic. That is fine. But a lost life is a lost life. And we all agree there are MANY things costing people lives in this country every day and we turn a blind eye. So I take issue to people calling out people like me who refuse to panic about this virus, all the while turning a blind eye to drug and alcohol deaths, homelessness, obesity, violent crimes, tobacco related deaths and drunk driving to name a few. They are all terrible.

So take this thing seriously. Try to end it asap. Do whatever necessary to save lives. But look at the big picture. Lives lost to this virus are no more important than lives lost a countless number of other ways.

Wow we’ve had an “agreement” breakthrough. This virus is bringing people closer!
In all honestly we probably agree more than we care to admit!

Seriously though I hope everyone is all good, and healthy. Looking forward to some sports, some normalcy, and maybe a little smack talk!
 
I found this article interesting. When all is said and done I wonder if there will be a comparison of how many people died compared to the average Mortality rate.

https://spectator.us/understand-report-figures-covid-deaths/
 
ilovethecats said:
HookedonGriz said:
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
Golly Gee Willikers I agree with Hooked!

We won't know for months or even years but I still maintain that looking back we'll see this whole thing was overblown in terms of lives lost.

I don't have a problem with people taking it seriously. It is serious and it is costing lives. I guess my frustration with some is the hypocrisy of the whole things. We value lives more than anything in this pandemic. That is fine. But a lost life is a lost life. And we all agree there are MANY things costing people lives in this country every day and we turn a blind eye. So I take issue to people calling out people like me who refuse to panic about this virus, all the while turning a blind eye to drug and alcohol deaths, homelessness, obesity, violent crimes, tobacco related deaths and drunk driving to name a few. They are all terrible.

So take this thing seriously. Try to end it asap. Do whatever necessary to save lives. But look at the big picture. Lives lost to this virus are no more important than lives lost a countless number of other ways.

I don't think very many people are making a bigger deal about this and then not paying attention to all those things you mention. I don't know what you mean by you're not panicking and people are calling you out. Does not panicking mean you're fine getting together with a bunch of people you don't know and don't know where they've been and not concerned after being with those people when you go back to family and friends? Like, hey man, look at me I'm not worried about this virus thing. Or are you just not panicking that a whole bunch/millions of people might die, which is what early projections said, but have since scaled back as new data comes available.

I don't think the issue is that this is a mad killer disease as much as it's about people not doing their part in protecting other people. That BS is really bothering me. Sure, I want to get back to work, but not when I can't trust everyone and not when I don't know just where this thing is going.
Especially take a look at what's going on inside hospitals. You have people risking, and losing, their lives to help others, some of who were just careless about this. These doctors don't risk their lives when their helping someone with cancer caused by cigarettes or someone that's been in shot or is obese. Yes, we lose lives to drunk drivers and people's second hand smoke, but there are laws/rules against those things. There's nothing stopping anyone knowingly infected that hasn't been outed from going around spreading this. You have people licking toilet seats and crap like doing the Coronaviruse Challenge..they're not panicked.

These medical professionals are going into harms way not knowing if they have the protective gear, while people were out partying on the beaches. I don't think that is considered a "refuse to panic" moment, but rather a thoughtless, careless moment. I highly doubt you're engaging in anything like that, but I think that's what is irking most people.
 
Speaking of being real! We just got news my Nephew has a co-worker in Missoula that has tested positive. If we would have seen my Nephew or his girlfriend in the past month we would be a risk because of our age. Thankfully we have been isolated by choice when this started getting serious! Stay safe everyone! By the way he has no symptoms as of yet.
 
getgrizzy said:
ilovethecats said:
HookedonGriz said:
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
Golly Gee Willikers I agree with Hooked!

We won't know for months or even years but I still maintain that looking back we'll see this whole thing was overblown in terms of lives lost.

I don't have a problem with people taking it seriously. It is serious and it is costing lives. I guess my frustration with some is the hypocrisy of the whole things. We value lives more than anything in this pandemic. That is fine. But a lost life is a lost life. And we all agree there are MANY things costing people lives in this country every day and we turn a blind eye. So I take issue to people calling out people like me who refuse to panic about this virus, all the while turning a blind eye to drug and alcohol deaths, homelessness, obesity, violent crimes, tobacco related deaths and drunk driving to name a few. They are all terrible.

So take this thing seriously. Try to end it asap. Do whatever necessary to save lives. But look at the big picture. Lives lost to this virus are no more important than lives lost a countless number of other ways.

I don't think very many people are making a bigger deal about this and then not paying attention to all those things you mention. I don't know what you mean by you're not panicking and people are calling you out. Does not panicking mean you're fine getting together with a bunch of people you don't know and don't know where they've been and not concerned after being with those people when you go back to family and friends? Like, hey man, look at me I'm not worried about this virus thing. Or are you just not panicking that a whole bunch/millions of people might die, which is what early projections said, but have since scaled back as new data comes available.

I don't think the issue is that this is a mad killer disease as much as it's about people not doing their part in protecting other people. That BS is really bothering me. Sure, I want to get back to work, but not when I can't trust everyone and not when I don't know just where this thing is going.
Especially take a look at what's going on inside hospitals. You have people risking, and losing, their lives to help others, some of who were just careless about this. These doctors don't risk their lives when their helping someone with cancer caused by cigarettes or someone that's been in shot or is obese. Yes, we lose lives to drunk drivers and people's second hand smoke, but there are laws/rules against those things. There's nothing stopping anyone knowingly infected that hasn't been outed from going around spreading this. You have people licking toilet seats and crap like doing the Coronaviruse Challenge..they're not panicked.

These medical professionals are going into harms way not knowing if they have the protective gear, while people were out partying on the beaches. I don't think that is considered a "refuse to panic" moment, but rather a thoughtless, careless moment. I highly doubt you're engaging in anything like that, but I think that's what is irking most people.
I'm not panicking in many ways. The numbers were overblown from the very beginning and I'm glad most of the experts have scaled back those guesses. I'm still working every day and interact with people all day long. In between these interactions I wash and sanitize my hands often. I'm not hoarding food and basic supplies like paper towels and toilet paper. I'm livid that my friends with two babies can't get baby wipes because idiots out there are hoarding them to wipe their asses.

You are right though, I'm following the precautions laid out for me. I have no choice. I only go out for work and for basic supplies. When the supplies are available after peoples panic purchasing. We haven't let our kids go to their friends, and have changed our way of living just like everyone else. We canceled spring break plans and my wife and I already canceled a trip to Mexico we had in a couple months. No I haven't been in any settings with a large group of people, or even a few people. Regardless of my opinions I'm following the rules.

My frustrations are what you lined out above. I agree that people not following these rules and putting other people in jeopardy is frustrating. My point is this is the EXACT case with people dying of other things every day. Could people do more to protect the old and vulnerable? Of course. People could do more every minute of every day to protect people. But as a whole we don't. We look out for ourselves and our families for the most part. I wish in general people cared more about others and did their parts to help others. We agree on that point.

I guess my question is where do we draw the line? We already know this is a virus that 98% of us won't get or won't know if we have it. Of those that do get it we know it's going to kill a tiny fraction of them. Regardless we have basically shut down the world to try and protect those that will get it and be in danger. I'm ok with that. Lives are lives. But at what point do we draw the line. If we're told to self-isolate for 5 more months are we ok with that? What about longer? If our kids can't go to school next year either is that ok?

I read yesterday that suicide attempts in Montana since our self-isolating has sky rocketed. Experts say that is only going to get worse. There will be many businesses that simply can't recover after this. Especially if it goes on for many more months. And while some will try and turn that into a "money versus lives" argument, it's not that at all. It's a "lives versus lives argument". In these times of quarantines domestic violence is expected to increase, suicides will increase, and the longer it goes on most experts agree crime in general will rise. People will become desperate. So I truly am asking, when will enough be enough? We all happy doing our part for some weeks, maybe even months. I'd be curious if people would still be so willing to help save the old and vulnerable when suddenly it impacts their own lives far more than missing out on a month of work and not being able to grab a beer with a buddy.

The issue with this discussion is it is difficult to have without being labeled insensitive or unforgiving. I don't feel that I am either of these things. I just value all lives the same. At some point, if it's not already happened, we are still going to be sacrificing lives; it will just be different lives than those we are trying so hard to save right now. And I think if we were told right now that self isolation will be continued through the year that people who care so much about these lives right now might be singing a different tune.
 
ilovethecats said:
getgrizzy said:
ilovethecats said:
HookedonGriz said:
The 3.4% mortality was upon the first data set the US had and has since decreased substantially. Infectious disease experts on the front lines of this thing have the mortality rate at 1% and maybe under now as more and more data rolls in (people being tested). They are certain tons of people have had this already and recovered without even knowing they had it. This would drive the mortality number down as well. It’s new, not a lot of immunity, no vaccine so we are all being over cautious until we know more. But the mortality rates are not on a level like SARS and others we’ve already been through.
Golly Gee Willikers I agree with Hooked!

We won't know for months or even years but I still maintain that looking back we'll see this whole thing was overblown in terms of lives lost.

I don't have a problem with people taking it seriously. It is serious and it is costing lives. I guess my frustration with some is the hypocrisy of the whole things. We value lives more than anything in this pandemic. That is fine. But a lost life is a lost life. And we all agree there are MANY things costing people lives in this country every day and we turn a blind eye. So I take issue to people calling out people like me who refuse to panic about this virus, all the while turning a blind eye to drug and alcohol deaths, homelessness, obesity, violent crimes, tobacco related deaths and drunk driving to name a few. They are all terrible.

So take this thing seriously. Try to end it asap. Do whatever necessary to save lives. But look at the big picture. Lives lost to this virus are no more important than lives lost a countless number of other ways.

I don't think very many people are making a bigger deal about this and then not paying attention to all those things you mention. I don't know what you mean by you're not panicking and people are calling you out. Does not panicking mean you're fine getting together with a bunch of people you don't know and don't know where they've been and not concerned after being with those people when you go back to family and friends? Like, hey man, look at me I'm not worried about this virus thing. Or are you just not panicking that a whole bunch/millions of people might die, which is what early projections said, but have since scaled back as new data comes available.

I don't think the issue is that this is a mad killer disease as much as it's about people not doing their part in protecting other people. That BS is really bothering me. Sure, I want to get back to work, but not when I can't trust everyone and not when I don't know just where this thing is going.
Especially take a look at what's going on inside hospitals. You have people risking, and losing, their lives to help others, some of who were just careless about this. These doctors don't risk their lives when their helping someone with cancer caused by cigarettes or someone that's been in shot or is obese. Yes, we lose lives to drunk drivers and people's second hand smoke, but there are laws/rules against those things. There's nothing stopping anyone knowingly infected that hasn't been outed from going around spreading this. You have people licking toilet seats and crap like doing the Coronaviruse Challenge..they're not panicked.

These medical professionals are going into harms way not knowing if they have the protective gear, while people were out partying on the beaches. I don't think that is considered a "refuse to panic" moment, but rather a thoughtless, careless moment. I highly doubt you're engaging in anything like that, but I think that's what is irking most people.
I'm not panicking in many ways. The numbers were overblown from the very beginning and I'm glad most of the experts have scaled back those guesses. I'm still working every day and interact with people all day long. In between these interactions I wash and sanitize my hands often. I'm not hoarding food and basic supplies like paper towels and toilet paper. I'm livid that my friends with two babies can't get baby wipes because idiots out there are hoarding them to wipe their asses.

You are right though, I'm following the precautions laid out for me. I have no choice. I only go out for work and for basic supplies. When the supplies are available after peoples panic purchasing. We haven't let our kids go to their friends, and have changed our way of living just like everyone else. We canceled spring break plans and my wife and I already canceled a trip to Mexico we had in a couple months. No I haven't been in any settings with a large group of people, or even a few people. Regardless of my opinions I'm following the rules.

My frustrations are what you lined out above. I agree that people not following these rules and putting other people in jeopardy is frustrating. My point is this is the EXACT case with people dying of other things every day. Could people do more to protect the old and vulnerable? Of course. People could do more every minute of every day to protect people. But as a whole we don't. We look out for ourselves and our families for the most part. I wish in general people cared more about others and did their parts to help others. We agree on that point.

I guess my question is where do we draw the line? We already know this is a virus that 98% of us won't get or won't know if we have it. Of those that do get it we know it's going to kill a tiny fraction of them. Regardless we have basically shut down the world to try and protect those that will get it and be in danger. I'm ok with that. Lives are lives. But at what point do we draw the line. If we're told to self-isolate for 5 more months are we ok with that? What about longer? If our kids can't go to school next year either is that ok?

I read yesterday that suicide attempts in Montana since our self-isolating has sky rocketed. Experts say that is only going to get worse. There will be many businesses that simply can't recover after this. Especially if it goes on for many more months. And while some will try and turn that into a "money versus lives" argument, it's not that at all. It's a "lives versus lives argument". In these times of quarantines domestic violence is expected to increase, suicides will increase, and the longer it goes on most experts agree crime in general will rise. People will become desperate. So I truly am asking, when will enough be enough? We all happy doing our part for some weeks, maybe even months. I'd be curious if people would still be so willing to help save the old and vulnerable when suddenly it impacts their own lives far more than missing out on a month of work and not being able to grab a beer with a buddy.

The issue with this discussion is it is difficult to have without being labeled insensitive or unforgiving. I don't feel that I am either of these things. I just value all lives the same. At some point, if it's not already happened, we are still going to be sacrificing lives; it will just be different lives than those we are trying so hard to save right now. And I think if we were told right now that self isolation will be continued through the year that people who care so much about these lives right now might be singing a different tune.

I agree with every single thing you just said. I literally share the exact same thoughts as you on all of this. A new study just came out that now has mortality rate at less than 1%.....it’s at 0.66%. I still support social distancing, my family has been doing its part for 2 weeks now, but if we are going to report every single death and shut down the state, and the media is going to try to sell fear for clicks, then they need this same reaction and attention to all lives that can be lost to disease, suicide, alcoholism, car accidents, overdoses, medical procedures, obesity, domestic violence, etc. One isn’t any more or less than the other.
 
I work in a hospital and we get updates on what other facilities are doing. A lot of hospitals are not even testing for COVID unless you are sick enough to be admitted into the hospital. This alone will increase the number of those that are positive that actually end up being a fatal case.
 
...willing to make a bold prediction...
...america is not a country..it's a business...
...businesses stay closed for very long they die..
...predict this will be over a lot sooner than a lot latter..

... :protesst: ....
 
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