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The lack of a run game

4theluvofgriz said:
Da Boyz Mom said:
AZGrizFan said:
I really don’t like it when people start cherry picking plays to include or not include in an average. We ran the ball for 4.6 ypc. Period. If you’re going to take out the good plays, then stats are absolutely meaningless.

Exactly. An average is usually derived by finding the mean - which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in a set by their number. You can lie with statistics by manipulating the data set but the math itself never lies.

Uh, so you are saying we have a great running game???

Nope, never said that. Only that an average is an average is an average. Once you start manipulating the data by removing certain data points you can make it say anything you want. See the book I posted earlier called how to lie with statistics.

Everyone and their brother know that the O line can't run block at the moment... It's the :dead: topic that just keeps on giving on egriz, but until we have something better to talk about that's probably not going to change. In the meantime I guess we can just keep arguing about what data to include in an average.
 
4theluvofgriz said:
AZGrizFan said:
PlayerRep said:
AZGrizFan said:
Like I said, he gets a lot of love on this board. He doesn’t come up to my lake house, so I don’t know the man personally....

Unfortunately, O-line performance isn’t measured solely in # of sacks given up. That can be manipulated by playcalling, # of steps in the drop, rolling out the QB consistently, etc., etc.

All that praise, and yet he’s still O-fer in development of any O-lineman anybody here would call above average during his time here. We’ve consistently complained about the O-line here for the past several years...and he’s the only thing that’s been consistent in that period.

Because of Germer, the o-lilne has performed better than it otherwise would, just like it did on Saturday. In the last few years, he has turned TE's into starting o-lineman. A minor miracle.

Come to some games, and come down on the field and talk to him. Or, come to a QB Club meeting. Or, have your wife work with his sister, like mine.

:lol: :lol: I KNEW there had to be a close connection there, PR.

The question is really almost rhetorical...we know what we have WITH him, but we don’t know for sure what we’d have WITHOUT him.

As I said in my opening post, I’m not passing judgement...but I will say this: I think Rosey does a great job with the scheme to minimize the damage the O-line can do...I’ll leave it at that.

Germer is a proven commodity as a solid O-line coach. He is the same coach who built some of our great O-lines in the past. He doesn't suddenly become pedestrian as a coach. The talent is just not there. Very few FCS teams have O-line quality beyond 6-7 players among the 14-16 on the team. There is a bigger drop-off going deep into the roster for the O-line than perhaps any other position. We are going much deeper into the O-line pool than what we need to put a solid group on the field. I believe a couple of these young starters will end up developing into solid linemen, but it will take time. The other starters are there out of necessity, and will probably not be starting in future years as Germer builds his line with recruiting.

Again, he's been here FOUR years. Presumably HE has a large say in WHICH O-linemen are recruited? If he's going to "build his line" with recruiting, shouldn't he already have done that? Every guy out there has been recruited under his watch as O-line coach....what am I missing here?
 
4theluvofgriz said:
AZGrizFan said:
Here’s a stat that would surprise anyone: Montana has a 3.4 YPC average. Cal Poly’s average is 2.5.




Yes, I realize who they’ve both played.

Nice try. YPC means little when 2-3 plays account for 90% of those yards, and mean even less when a substantial portion of those yards came from QB scrambles on broken plays.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Cherrypicker. A play is a play is a play. You can't count some and not others. We've either gained the yards or we haven't. There's a reason Sneed is the starting QB.
 
Da Boyz Mom said:
4theluvofgriz said:
Da Boyz Mom said:
AZGrizFan said:
I really don’t like it when people start cherry picking plays to include or not include in an average. We ran the ball for 4.6 ypc. Period. If you’re going to take out the good plays, then stats are absolutely meaningless.

Exactly. An average is usually derived by finding the mean - which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in a set by their number. You can lie with statistics by manipulating the data set but the math itself never lies.

Uh, so you are saying we have a great running game???

Nope, never said that. Only that an average is an average is an average. Once you start manipulating the data by removing certain data points you can make it say anything you want. See the book I posted earlier called how to lie with statistics.

Everyone and their brother know that the O line can't run block at the moment... It's the :dead: topic that just keeps on giving on egriz, but until we have something better to talk about that's probably not going to change. In the meantime I guess we can just keep arguing about what data to include in an average.

Stats mean nothing. All I need to see is that we can't gain one yard on 3rd-and-one, and consider that a passing down because our running game is so pathetic. Since you're such a statistician, you must realize that stats mean nothing, and can be manipulated to "prove" any narrative. No poster who understands the game of football will buy what you are selling.
 
AZGrizFan said:
4theluvofgriz said:
AZGrizFan said:
PlayerRep said:
Because of Germer, the o-lilne has performed better than it otherwise would, just like it did on Saturday. In the last few years, he has turned TE's into starting o-lineman. A minor miracle.

Come to some games, and come down on the field and talk to him. Or, come to a QB Club meeting. Or, have your wife work with his sister, like mine.

:lol: :lol: I KNEW there had to be a close connection there, PR.

The question is really almost rhetorical...we know what we have WITH him, but we don’t know for sure what we’d have WITHOUT him.

As I said in my opening post, I’m not passing judgement...but I will say this: I think Rosey does a great job with the scheme to minimize the damage the O-line can do...I’ll leave it at that.

Germer is a proven commodity as a solid O-line coach. He is the same coach who built some of our great O-lines in the past. He doesn't suddenly become pedestrian as a coach. The talent is just not there. Very few FCS teams have O-line quality beyond 6-7 players among the 14-16 on the team. There is a bigger drop-off going deep into the roster for the O-line than perhaps any other position. We are going much deeper into the O-line pool than what we need to put a solid group on the field. I believe a couple of these young starters will end up developing into solid linemen, but it will take time. The other starters are there out of necessity, and will probably not be starting in future years as Germer builds his line with recruiting.

Again, he's been here FOUR years. Presumably HE has a large say in WHICH O-linemen are recruited? If he's going to "build his line" with recruiting, shouldn't he already have done that? Every guy out there has been recruited under his watch as O-line coach....what am I missing here?

this.
 
PlayerRep said:
AZGrizFan said:
Disclaimer: I’m not passing judgment, but asking a question because I truly don’t know the answer:

We are on our fourth year with Germer as O-line coach. We’ve had the consistency in that area that one would presumably desire. He’s presumably had significant input into who is recruited and signed in that area. Yet our O-line has underperformed for all of those four years (both in recruiting success and actual performance on the field).

Germer gets a TON of love on this board...yet he has been unable to produce, really, a single above average offensive lineman in four years. Is it possible he’s not the answer?

Germer is a great o-line coach and probably the best the Griz ever had--or maybe will ever have.

Ask the o-lineman of the past. Start with Dylan McFarland. He attributes his college and NFL success to Germer.

Without Germer, this year's o-line would be several times worse. You should be complimenting Germer for how he handled the injuries yesterday.

99 passes so far this season, and not a great running game, and only 2 sacks. Sure, a mobile qb, but still only 2 sacks.

The o-line did not underperform last year.The o-line was good.

If you lived closer and were closer to the program, you would know this. That's a joke, AZ.

This.

I guess I can learn to play the this game too.
 
PlayerRep said:
PlayerRep said:
AZGrizFan said:
Disclaimer: I’m not passing judgment, but asking a question because I truly don’t know the answer:

We are on our fourth year with Germer as O-line coach. We’ve had the consistency in that area that one would presumably desire. He’s presumably had significant input into who is recruited and signed in that area. Yet our O-line has underperformed for all of those four years (both in recruiting success and actual performance on the field).

Germer gets a TON of love on this board...yet he has been unable to produce, really, a single above average offensive lineman in four years. Is it possible he’s not the answer?

Germer is a great o-line coach and probably the best the Griz ever had--or maybe will ever have.

Ask the o-lineman of the past. Start with Dylan McFarland. He attributes his college and NFL success to Germer.

Without Germer, this year's o-line would be several times worse. You should be complimenting Germer for how he handled the injuries yesterday.

99 passes so far this season, and not a great running game, and only 2 sacks. Sure, a mobile qb, but still only 2 sacks.

The o-line did not underperform last year.The o-line was good.

If you lived closer and were closer to the program, you would know this. That's a joke, AZ.

This.

I guess I can learn to play the this game too.

as for me, i just concurred with azfan that under germer the last few years, the o-line has underperformed (compared to previous griz o-lines), and that, at least as measured by (for instance) all-conference accolades for individual players, recruiting hasn't been as good as previously. never said he was a bad recruiter, never opined on how his coaching was this year, or whether the o-line was good or bad last year. it is all relative.

also, the bigger point, which i make ad nauseum on here, is that when it comes to criticizing coaching, a large number of posters are highly biased an not objective. instead of accurate, or close to accurate analysis, they make statements clearly meant to "diss" certain members of the previous staff, conveniently ignoring that, for instance, germer was a long-term member of that staff.

put that in your eggs and ham and chew on it, greenie.
 
AZGrizFan said:
Are you implying that I’m argh?

Everybody thinks you're argh, it's all over Twitter. :lol:

Except Ursa, he thinks you're Everett...and he knows Everett. That guy is messed up.
 
Take out the opponent's fake punt TD and what have our opponents averaged per run?

Man, I'm pissed that the Griz are 2 - 0! :roll: ;) (sarcasm intended)
 
MikeyGriz said:
Take out the opponent's fake punt TD and what have our opponents averaged per run?

Man, I'm pissed that the Griz are 2 - 0! :roll: ;) (sarcasm intended)

:clap:
 
It appears that PR has been unsuccessful convincing some of you that statistics prove that we really have a run game beyond Sneed taking off left, right and up the middle. Faithless bastards. Watch the tape a few more times with a few more drinks under your belt and I'm sure you will conclude that PR is correct. You may also conclude however that we really do seem to have an actual defense which, if in place for the last two years, would have taken us to the playoffs. I can suffer through a whole lot of 14-13 or 21-17 wins even if we can't run for shit. Ultimately the O-line play is going to have to improve to move to the elite FCS level but I don't think I'm imagining that this is a better overall team effort than what we saw last year. I'm cautiously optimistic.
 
argh! said:
PlayerRep said:
PlayerRep said:
AZGrizFan said:
Disclaimer: I’m not passing judgment, but asking a question because I truly don’t know the answer:

We are on our fourth year with Germer as O-line coach. We’ve had the consistency in that area that one would presumably desire. He’s presumably had significant input into who is recruited and signed in that area. Yet our O-line has underperformed for all of those four years (both in recruiting success and actual performance on the field).

Germer gets a TON of love on this board...yet he has been unable to produce, really, a single above average offensive lineman in four years. Is it possible he’s not the answer?

Germer is a great o-line coach and probably the best the Griz ever had--or maybe will ever have.

Ask the o-lineman of the past. Start with Dylan McFarland. He attributes his college and NFL success to Germer.

Without Germer, this year's o-line would be several times worse. You should be complimenting Germer for how he handled the injuries yesterday.

99 passes so far this season, and not a great running game, and only 2 sacks. Sure, a mobile qb, but still only 2 sacks.

The o-line did not underperform last year.The o-line was good.

If you lived closer and were closer to the program, you would know this. That's a joke, AZ.

This.

I guess I can learn to play the this game too.

as for me, i just concurred with azfan that under germer the last few years, the o-line has underperformed (compared to previous griz o-lines), and that, at least as measured by (for instance) all-conference accolades for individual players, recruiting hasn't been as good as previously. never said he was a bad recruiter, never opined on how his coaching was this year, or whether the o-line was good or bad last year. it is all relative.

also, the bigger point, which i make ad nauseum on here, is that when it comes to criticizing coaching, a large number of posters are highly biased an not objective. instead of accurate, or close to accurate analysis, they make statements clearly meant to "diss" certain members of the previous staff, conveniently ignoring that, for instance, germer was a long-term member of that staff.

put that in your eggs and ham and chew on it, greenie.

Given the talent, the o-line has done fine while Germer has been here.

My even bigger point is that most people criticizing coaching on egriz don't have a clue what they are talking about, have never coached, and certainly never played the game. Their criticism is utterly meaningless. That is one reason that Scott Gurnsey thinks that most posters on egriz are football idiots.

Germer is a terrific o-line coach. Everyone or virtually everyone who has coached with him would say that. Samewith players he has coached. He may be the most important coach this season.

argh, you can spew your nonsense on Germer and ST's all you want, but most people who know the game won't be agreeing with you. So, put that in your test tube and drink it.
 
sdk.catfish said:
It appears that PR has been unsuccessful convincing some of you that statistics prove that we really have a run game beyond Sneed taking off left, right and up the middle. Faithless bastards. Watch the tape a few more times with a few more drinks under your belt and I'm sure you will conclude that PR is correct. You may also conclude however that we really do seem to have an actual defense which, if in place for the last two years, would have taken us to the playoffs. I can suffer through a whole lot of 14-13 or 21-17 wins even if we can't run for shit. Ultimately the O-line play is going to have to improve to move to the elite FCS level but I don't think I'm imagining that this is a better overall team effort than what we saw last year. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Where did I ever say UM had a good run game this year? Answer, I haven't.

Where have I said the Griz have a good run game beyond Sneed. Answer: I haven't.

sdk, either produce some quotes on where I said the run game was good, or good without Sneed, or shut up.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? I must have pointed out something dumb you said once, so now you have to post like this.
 
PlayerRep said:
argh! said:
PlayerRep said:
PlayerRep said:
Germer is a great o-line coach and probably the best the Griz ever had--or maybe will ever have.

Ask the o-lineman of the past. Start with Dylan McFarland. He attributes his college and NFL success to Germer.

Without Germer, this year's o-line would be several times worse. You should be complimenting Germer for how he handled the injuries yesterday.

99 passes so far this season, and not a great running game, and only 2 sacks. Sure, a mobile qb, but still only 2 sacks.

The o-line did not underperform last year.The o-line was good.

If you lived closer and were closer to the program, you would know this. That's a joke, AZ.

This.

I guess I can learn to play the this game too.

as for me, i just concurred with azfan that under germer the last few years, the o-line has underperformed (compared to previous griz o-lines), and that, at least as measured by (for instance) all-conference accolades for individual players, recruiting hasn't been as good as previously. never said he was a bad recruiter, never opined on how his coaching was this year, or whether the o-line was good or bad last year. it is all relative.

also, the bigger point, which i make ad nauseum on here, is that when it comes to criticizing coaching, a large number of posters are highly biased an not objective. instead of accurate, or close to accurate analysis, they make statements clearly meant to "diss" certain members of the previous staff, conveniently ignoring that, for instance, germer was a long-term member of that staff.

put that in your eggs and ham and chew on it, greenie.

Given the talent, the o-line has done fine while Germer has been here.

My even bigger point is that most people criticizing coaching on egriz don't have a clue what they are talking about, have never coached, and certainly never played the game. Their criticism is utterly meaningless. That is one reason that Scott Gurnsey thinks that most posters on egriz are football idiots.

Germer is a terrific o-line coach. Everyone or virtually everyone who has coached with him would say that. Samewith players he has coached. He may be the most important coach this season.

argh, you can spew your nonsense on Germer and ST's all you want, but most people who know the game won't be agreeing with you. So, put that in your test tube and drink it.

PR - I also believe Germer is a good coach. But, do you agree he is the principal recruiter of linemen? If you do, why the real or at least perceived lack of talent at the position? Perhaps it's simply youth...and Germer will truly earn his paycheck this season by elevating their performance throughout the year.
 
It appears that PR has been unsuccessful convincing some of you that statistics prove that we really have a run game beyond Sneed taking off left, right and up the middle.

PR, your typical spew when someone even comes close to disagreeing with you. I'll expend the effort to prove the point when you show me where I ever said "Good" in relation to the run game. Sometimes maybe you should consider just not posting when others disagree because, while you may have played the game, your eyes are getting old and you aren't watching the game. The current run game, minus Sneed, is not something to write home about but keep on imagining. But I'm saying the defense is better than expected so don't get your knickers all in a twist.
 
I think AZ's question is a good one. There is no question O line play is bad, Bobby has told us so. It would seem that at least asking the question as to whether the long tenured position coach bears some responsibility is a reasonable thing to do.
 
SoldierGriz said:
PlayerRep said:
argh! said:
PlayerRep said:
This.

I guess I can learn to play the this game too.

as for me, i just concurred with azfan that under germer the last few years, the o-line has underperformed (compared to previous griz o-lines), and that, at least as measured by (for instance) all-conference accolades for individual players, recruiting hasn't been as good as previously. never said he was a bad recruiter, never opined on how his coaching was this year, or whether the o-line was good or bad last year. it is all relative.

also, the bigger point, which i make ad nauseum on here, is that when it comes to criticizing coaching, a large number of posters are highly biased an not objective. instead of accurate, or close to accurate analysis, they make statements clearly meant to "diss" certain members of the previous staff, conveniently ignoring that, for instance, germer was a long-term member of that staff.

put that in your eggs and ham and chew on it, greenie.

Given the talent, the o-line has done fine while Germer has been here.

My even bigger point is that most people criticizing coaching on egriz don't have a clue what they are talking about, have never coached, and certainly never played the game. Their criticism is utterly meaningless. That is one reason that Scott Gurnsey thinks that most posters on egriz are football idiots.

Germer is a terrific o-line coach. Everyone or virtually everyone who has coached with him would say that. Samewith players he has coached. He may be the most important coach this season.

argh, you can spew your nonsense on Germer and ST's all you want, but most people who know the game won't be agreeing with you. So, put that in your test tube and drink it.

PR - I also believe Germer is a good coach. But, do you agree he is the principal recruiter of linemen? If you do, why the real or at least perceived lack of talent at the position? Perhaps it's simply youth...and Germer will truly earn his paycheck this season by elevating their performance throughout the year.

For some reason people (supporters) seem to be avoiding this question...
 
I am as critical of coaches as anyone on this site, but I just don't buy the fact that it is Germer's fault that our line is so poor. Yes, he recruited these kids. But, we have lost three of our highest-rated O-line recruits recently. They would all be starting this season, and our line would look entirely different if they were playing. Germer has had a run of bad luck with some of his best linemen leaving the program. I still go back to the fact that Germer was the coach of some of our best O-lines in the past. What, did he suddenly forget how to coach??? Get real, dudes. We are now playing kids who should be buried on the depth chart. No FCS team goes 7-10 deep with quality linemen.
 
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