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Why BAC is often confused for a liberal

kalm

kalm

Well-known member
And I'm guessing he's not alone. I especially like Leonard Pitt's point in the following article about calling out moderate muslims.

"I didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Party left me."

-Ronald Reagan 1962
'Conservative' has lost meaning
Pitts online
Syndicated columnist Leonard Pitts chats with readers Wednesday from 10 to 11 a.m., PDT at www.MiamiHerald.com.



Leonard Pitts Jr.
September 14, 2008


So it seems George W. Bush is not really conservative.

Nor are Mitt Romney, John McCain and, indeed, the vast majority of the Republican Party. Or so I'm told by a number of readers who took exception to a recent column lambasting Romney for his speech at the GOP convention. In it, Romney declared that the way to fix Washington is to turn it over to conservatives. If you didn't know any better, said I, you'd think conservatives had not been in charge most of the last decade. This kind of babblespeak, I argued, has become increasingly characteristic of the political right.

Except, according to my correspondents, those conservatives in charge weren't really conservative at all. As Roy from Sanger, Calif., put it in an e-mail: "If you believe what we have had in D.C. so far this century is a conservative Washington, your perceptions are colored by a memory loss of what real conservatism looks like. Bring back to life 'real' conservatives who died before 1996, and they would think only one party ruled in D.C. now, the tax and spend, spend and spend some more party."

The funny thing is, I agree. Stack the traditional definition of "conservative" alongside the events of the last few years, and it's hard not to. It is, for example, difficult to find evidence of government getting out of people's way in the Terri Schiavo affair. Or evidence of lean, mean government efficiency in the Hurricane Katrina debacle. Or evidence of fiscal restraint in a projected $500 billion budget deficit. Or evidence of foreign policy pragmatism in the invasion of a country that had not attacked us and did not threaten to. Or evidence of accountability in the eagerness to duck blame for all the above.

Conservatism, an ideology once driven by principle, has shrunk until its purview can be, and often is, delineated in three syllables: God, guns, gays. Worse, it has embraced a win-at-all-costs ethos and intellectual dishonesty that are, even by the seamy standards of modern politics, astonishing.

To pick just one of many available illustrations: Last month, Karl Rove praised the choice of Sarah Palin as John McCain's running mate, citing among other things, her two long years as governor of Alaska and her experience as mayor of Wasilla, which has a population smaller than some apartment complexes. This came a few weeks after Rove said Tim Kaine was unfit to be Barack Obama's running mate because he, Kaine, had been governor of Virginia "only" two years, before which, he was mayor of Richmond which, with about 200,000 residents, is "not a big town."

Now, I don't care what your ideology is: You cannot, if you've got half a brain, define that as anything but hypocrisy. And if true conservatives hate seeing that kind of duplicity associated with conservatism, I understand. But I have a question for them: Where have you been the last 15 years? Where were you when conservatism was untethered from principle, unhooked from reality? Where were you when it became smug and self-righteous, when it traded its integrity for situational outrage, its credibility for angry certitude, its honor for ballot box success? Where were you when it sold out to evangelicals and anti-intellectuals? Where were you when it got hijacked?

American Muslims are often challenged to speak out against extremists in their religion, but for my money, that challenge can more fairly be leveled at those people Roy calls real conservatives. They sat silent as their principles were discarded, as their very name was stolen and used to drive the country off a cliff. I hope e-mails like Roy's mean their long silence is about to be broken, but I have some advice for him and anyone else who doesn't think the Republicans are truly conservative:

Don't tell me. Tell the Republicans.
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Rove was not being hypocritical, since he said Kaine would not be a good pick because that would make both candidates on the Democratic ticket inexperienced. McCain can afford (and probably had to) pick a new, fresh face, even if they aren't as experienced as some of his other choices. He has experience, but he needed that change/reform mantra as well.

Your premise for BAC and others being deemed liberal only because the Republican party left them though, that is just wrong. One would not consider voting for the most liberal ticket in history out of their disappointment in the Republicans becoming too liberal themselves. THAT is hypocrisy.
 
Drew said:
Rove was not being hypocritical, since he said Kaine would not be a good pick because that would make both candidates on the Democratic ticket inexperienced. McCain can afford (and probably had to) pick a new, fresh face, even if they aren't as experienced as some of his other choices. He has experience, but he needed that change/reform mantra as well.

Your premise for BAC and others being deemed liberal only because the Republican party left them though, that is just wrong. One would not consider voting for the most liberal ticket in history out of their disappointment in the Republicans becoming too liberal themselves. THAT is hypocrisy.
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Your response might be exactly what Pitts is talking about. The labels "liberal" or "Democrat" may be negative to you, but a truly independant voter is going to ignore labels and pay attention to the candidates record and what they're proposals are. And this is espcecially true considering that both party's can change their philosophies and rise above or below their reputations.

BTW BAC is leaning McCain.
 
The article in my opinion is right on, as far as George Bush, Mitt Rommney, and John McCain not being conservatives.

At the grassroots, and especially at the state and federal level of congress, a lot of so called conservatives, are Republican in label only, and not conservative at all. I agree totally that way too many conservatives have lost their way.

However, Kalm, where is the fair and balance you seem to seek, why hasn't Mr.Pitts declared that the Democrats, have also morphed, and are no longer the Democrats of their glory,... now being run, funded and directed by websites Moveon and Daily Kos, far far left, almost to the extreme of Socialist or even Marxists.

Maybe that is why Mr.Pitts has shone light on the fact that Bush, Rommney, and McCain as not being conservative, however that light of not being conservative is not eluded to Sara Palin, for she is a conservative, far and beyond the three exhibited.

Also, Pitts was clever showing the inexperience of Tim Kane, depicted by Karl Rove, and eluding to Sara Palin, although never mention the inexperience of Senator Obama.


And really, who care which way BAC is leaning, it's nobody business but his own, although, I thought that BAC was some kind of self describe libertarian, and how can a libertarian of any kind be supporting Senator Obama.

One more thing Reagan conservatives have been complaining of Rino's for years now, and they have been placed into the position of the lesser of two evils, and at this point in time the lesser still looks pretty good,
 
spsyk said:
The article in my opinion is right on, as far as George Bush, Mitt Rommney, and John McCain not being conservatives.

At the grassroots, and especially at the state and federal level of congress, a lot of so called conservatives, are Republican in label only, and not conservative at all. I agree totally that way too many conservatives have lost their way.

However, Kalm, where is the fair and balance you seem to seek, why hasn't Mr.Pitts declared that the Democrats, have also morphed, and are no longer the Democrats of their glory,... now being run, funded and directed by websites Moveon and Daily Kos, far far left, almost to the extreme of Socialist or even Marxists.

Maybe that is why Mr.Pitts has shone light on the fact that Bush, Rommney, and McCain as not being conservative, however that light of not being conservative is not eluded to Sara Palin, for she is a conservative, far and beyond the three exhibited.

Also, Pitts was clever showing the inexperience of Tim Kane, depicted by Karl Rove, and eluding to Sara Palin, although never mention the inexperience of Senator Obama.


And really, who care which way BAC is leaning, it's nobody business but his own, although, I thought that BAC was some kind of self describe libertarian, and how can a libertarian of any kind be supporting Senator Obama.

One more thing Reagan conservatives have been complaining of Rino's for years now, and they have been placed into the position of the lesser of two evils, and at this point in time the lesser still looks pretty good,
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I was being somewhat satirical in my use of fair and balanced in the other thread. Pitts admittedly leans to the left, but would still be considered moderate by reasonable standards.

As for your accusation of the Democratic Party being run, funded, and directed by Moveon.org and dailykos, care to share some evidence. I've never visisted either website, so I'd be interested to fnd out how much control they have. I'd also like you to further support your assertion that the the Obama campaign, the Democratic party, or the people that run these organizations are marxists or socialists. It seems they may favor a more retrictive or regulated form of capitalism but that doesn't neccessarily mean they're calling for the overthrow of the bourgeoisie.
 
Kalm,


I think Pitts, has described a situation that has been evident to conservatives for a quit awhile now.

There have even been Democrats that have espoused conservative values that have won elections over Rino's, a good example of this was the 2006 mid-term election.

As far as Moveon and Daily Kos, if you are not aware, and not familiar with these sites, the only thing I can say is the information is out there.

If you have never been to these sites, I think you would find it educational, I find it a must to see the other side, and try to understand, and that is where I've come to the conclusion that I have.

Now, I would not accuse Senator Obama of being a socialist, although some of his tenets could sure lead into that direction, for example, redistribution of wealth, the stifling of free markets, universal health care, some of his tenets on education, taxation and regulation on corporations,bigger government, and much more.

Now, I don't think senator Obama is the devil, I'm just not comfortable with his ideology. Maybe why I espouse McCain / Palin and not Obama.

I have stated in other threads, that I was not really engaged in this election, before McCain selected Palin, in fact voting for him would have been difficult until Palin.

You see the way I look at it, is Palin is a real conservative, McCain and Obama have more in common than one may think, if the war in Iraq was omitted. And I don't think that McCain would be a two term president if elected, and after four years as VP I think it will be obvious that Palin is up to the challenge.

I'm not leaving for Canada in the event of an Obama presidency, and I believe there will be change with Obama as president, and not necessary the change that is being expected.

I also believe that there will be change with a McCain presidency, a lot of that change will not be greeted by the right as a good change, just less than Obama's change.

Issues that are important to me are

1 security for the country

2 maintain an offensive position on the war on terror.

3 not leaving Iraq, until Iraq is self sufficient, so when troops leave we don't have to go back.

4 energy policy, ( that includes everything, not just fairy-tails that may never materialize.) One of main factors of having a healthy and robust economy.

5 immigration

6 taxes, ( don't agree to tax the rich much higher than where they are taxed already).

7 taxes and additional regulation on corporations

8 Maintenance for a strong, and the strongest military in the world.

and there is more.

Things that are not important to me.

1 I don't care what the rest of the world thinks of American. American has proved that they have benefited the world more,...that less, if they don't like us OK, they don't have too, because they will when they need us again.

again there is more.
 
Excellent post, kalm. The post and the responses have illustrated a lot of the most annoying aspects of the current Republican party and those who strangely vow allegiance to it.
 
spsyk said:
And really, who care which way BAC is leaning, it's nobody business but his own, although, I thought that BAC was some kind of self describe libertarian, and how can a libertarian of any kind be supporting Senator Obama.
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It's okay for us to talk about who we are voting for ... especially since it shows how absurd so many of the mindless assertions made by others have been and continue to be.

A hardcore libertarian wouldn't be able to vote for either McCain or Obama. Neither candidate comes even close to being an ideal libertarian candidate. And McCain certainly doesn't beat out Obama in terms of libertarian cred (especially since his party has been the worst enemy of the libertarian philosophy over the last 8 years) ... both have some good points and some bad points throught the libertarian lens.

But since I don't really want to vote for Bob Barr, I have to pick one of the others to vote for.
 
Bay Area Cat said:
spsyk said:
And really, who care which way BAC is leaning, it's nobody business but his own, although, I thought that BAC was some kind of self describe libertarian, and how can a libertarian of any kind be supporting Senator Obama.
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It's okay for us to talk about who we are voting for ... especially since it shows how absurd so many of the mindless assertions made by others have been and continue to be.

A hardcore libertarian wouldn't be able to vote for either McCain or Obama. Neither candidate comes even close to being an ideal libertarian candidate. And McCain certainly doesn't beat out Obama in terms of libertarian cred (especially since his party has been the worst enemy of the libertarian philosophy over the last 8 years) ... both have some good points and some bad points throught the libertarian lens.

But since I don't really want to vote for Bob Barr, I have to pick one of the others to vote for.
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Why not vote for Hells Bells? That might fit your philosophies!

:lol:

Seriously, though, you're right in that this is an election for compromises. While I could NEVER vote for Obama, there are indeed serious questions about McCain, though I supported him before most Elephants did because he was (and is) the only candidate who would do anything to support the world's best Navy. I would have preferred voting for Keyes, but there was absolutely no way that he is ever going to get out of the primaries.
 
So from what I am reading, no one is actually paying attention to the current campaign. I will just get the main point that the GOP has done nothing but push bull shit and total lies of the last few months. Check it out yourself at Politifacts.com or Factcheck.org. This is not an Obama advertisement, its and anti-ignorance point of view. Its disheartening to read all these posts with quotes like "I dont care what the rest of the world thinks about America." Well I do, as does the rest of the University...Look at what U of M does internationally. Ya'll are supporters of U of M athletics but apparently are completely disconnected to what actually happens in the University itself. IT IS A LIBERAL SCHOOL. So when you come to the game, spend your hard earned money, I hope you realise it goes toward teaching the students of the University of Montana about subjects involving Climate Change and our futile economy. There is a reason that younger Americans are voting for Barack Obama, its because they are educated with the information of today. It is important to respect the knowledge of the educated, especially the more recently educated. Trust your children, the country will be in their hands longer than yours. We cannot allow our best friends to die anymore through the greed of the GOP.
 
Guess what BJenks. I'm a republican who graduated from U of M who knowingly supports the University and is graciously thankful for the education it gave me. The main goal of the University is to instill in its students a well rounded education. This is why you are forced to take electives in a variety of fields before being given the honor of a diploma. The University of Montana is a LIBERAL ARTS school. Because it is a State run public institution it doesn't get to show any political bias. Sure, I'm sure if you polled all the proffesors at the school, a majority of them would be left of center, however most of them have the integrity to educate the facts rather than their own personal opinions. As a student, I did learn more about "the issues of today", but to call myself more knowledgable than people who've delt with REAL LIFE for a lot longer than I have, would be arrogant, which you come off strongly as being. Guess what, most of these uneducated elders, are actually having to deal with the issues of today. I recomend learning from them as they are more knowledgable in the ways of the "real" world than you are. You've also clearly showed that you know close to nothing about our government. If you feel as though political affiliation and opinion is a difference between how educated you are, I feel sorry for you. Now if you excuse me, this ignorant republican has to go get ready to happily spend money on Griz tickets for the weekend.
 
They should've put Rove in a glass jar...

It's dissapointing to see the state of the GOP. I don't understand how people call our administration as "very conservative" when they've allowed our government to spend at record levels and have allowed the federal gov't to grow and be more overbearing. Isn't exactly the mantra of what the GOP used to stand for. The party needs to push hard to get back to its fundamentals. The reason it's losing support, IS because it is straying from these fundamentals. Let me be strait, I feel as the Democratic party is to blame with the aboved reference problem as well, but the GOP is suppose to be the party that protects us from overspending and big government. It has failed to do this and instead has supported this. I'm really hoping McCain can stay true to his reputation and deliver in his promise of bringing the party back to it's fundamentals.
 
I too was a Republican who was educated and quite well at the University of Montana. For the most part the professors kept their political views to themselves, but there were exceptions obviously. The UofM made me more moderate than had I gone to a university that was in line with my world view.

Neither party finds themselves cornering the market on ideal behavior for politicians. McCain was right, while most republicans think he is nuts, they were elected to reform washington and all they did in the following decade is let power get to their heads. In the last eight years, the Democrat party, has become more of a oppositional party rather than constructing itself with a consistent message. The one message is "Well we sure as heck don't think they are doing it right but we sure don't have a response to it." If the democrats truly had a message with their ideal candidate they would be blowing this election away by double digits. The Obama campaign is listless and floundering at sea. I just get the impression that they are just waiting for McCain and Palin to screw up.

Frankly I am bored to death with this election. I think the most excited I was in the whole campaign was when McCain told his own party they were part of the problem. As a gov't teacher, it sickens me to the nth degree when all my students hear blabber and so little in the area of ideas. They can't tell me outside of political speak what either candidate believes in because they spend so much time waffling as to never actually mention an actual opinion.

Did anyone listen to Obama's and McCains interview about the economy this morning. Holy cow, could have they spent more time saying nothing?
 
Its easy to take things out of context isnt it Highline... It's like the O'Reilly Factor without the screaming. My main point is that there is a reason younger people, especially in MT are leaning the way they are and its not becuase someone is or is'nt a pop star. The "real world" seems to constantly affect conservatives in a negative way, and a lot of people are tired of that perspective. I would love to see progress to bring down costs on living making a middle of the stack income. I would love to be able to travel abroad without being labeled as and asshole as soon as someone realizes I'm American. I'm scared shitless of Evangelicals taking over, AGAIN. Watch the documentary "Jesus Camp", its an eye opener. I wasnt calling myself more knowledgable by any means, but I have seen a lot more current events up close than a lot of older people and I dont think its fair for them to dismiss young adults views because they are "popular". Thats just silly. I know the politics, Ive been stuck in the middle east, Ive read the books and articles, and its hard to believe people can just fall into two catagories as easy as they are. I dont agree with a lot of what both sides have to say, but I know who will put the American masses first with true concern and open ears. I am not taking anything away from people's real life experiences as I wouldnt want to be discredited...but your party has taken politics and made it a mockery by doing just that. Discrediting public service, while lying to our faces with stories and rhetoric that are easily disproved...how do you personally get past that? I am honestly asking you, how do you get past the entire existence of Sarah Palin on your ticket? factcheck.org or politifact.com. I think everyone should take a break and wait for the debates.
 
I didn't take anything out of context. Your post implied that people with conservative values were ignorant to support the University and I called you out on it. You called the school a liberal school in large caps, I called you out on that. You are also implying that younger "educated" people are more in touch with the issues of today, which is just rediculous. Maybe you should read your original post again. I won't dispute that younger people may be a little more in tune with some issues or that they don't deserve a voice because of their inexperiences (I'm only 23 and feel I deserve a voice). Don't let me discredit you either for experiencing other cultures and perspectives, that's awesome. However, I'm willing to argue, strongly, that older people have a better understanding on many issues such as the economy and domestic policy that you can't just be taught in the classroom. Your pretty closed minded if you think that the republican party is the only one practicing dirty politics and has been dishonest. Democrats have used the art of manipulation as well. I'm also frustrated that a lot of people pledge blind loyalty to their party or to a presidential ticket. If you've read my previous posts, you'll know that I'm not a fan of Palin's. Her inexperience worries me and I don't think she is ready to be the leader of the world's most powerfull and influential country. I feel as the person who best represents my views on how we need to fix this country's problems, regardless who has caused them, is John McCain. I will likely vote for him as an educated young republican who is angry with the direction the GOP has taken. I too look forward to the debates.
 
Bay Area Cat - I went to Pakistan for understanding, just the same as I traveled to the Amazon and through Central America. Craziest by far was Pakistan...I was there during the Red Mosque and Bhutto's assasination timespan. I was stuck in a bedroom for 2 weeks talking politics with rather important local political figures of Lahore while our flags were burning in the streets. I spent every morning reading aritcles on the front pages of their papers about how Tom Tancredo planned on bombing Mecca and Medina to "prove a point" to Islamic Terrorists. His plan was much worse than the Bush Doctrine!(Palin doesnt know what that is)! The same articles only made local news in the town he spoke at in Iowa... He really did said that shit and it literally almost got me killed. I learned a lot about Islam and am a strong supporter of the religion if practiced the way its supposed to be, which is true for catholosism and most other religions (not evangelical).

And Highline - Everyone practices some dirty politics but you have to be absolutely nuts to be able to watch McCain commercials and speeches and not catch that he and Palin are straight out lying to you. Like i said before, I am not endorsing anyone, but it is really frustrating watchin their speeches and then checking the facts. They hardly ever line up and if they do, they are half-truths. I support most of what Obama wants to do, like fixing our economy from the ground up...I dont want the richest Americans having control over everyone else...we have seen that this just breeds corruption. I do not agree with his gun policies but its obvious he has good intentions. We know we will never agree with all of either canidates plan, but more of the same govt. will push us closer and closer to a collapsing empire. 6 months ago I thought McCain was the least scary of the party, but now its hard not to see all the similarities between his camp and the current. Progressive ideas like developing Mexico with a good portion of what we have put into China, to stabalize out nieghbor and relinquish the illegal imigration numbers is a pretty good idea I think...we arent going to even consider such ideas with McCain. Im rambling but I think you and I are on the same page more than we disagree.
 
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