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Socialized Medicine? Not quite

kalm

Well-known member
The only thing holding us back is greed, campaign finance, the myth of privatization, and a centrist president doing his best imitation of Clinton and triangulation.

Put this in your "Weatlh of Nations"/Alan Greenspan/Grover Norquist/Ronald Reagan pipe and smoke it. :D



Published on Sunday, August 23, 2009 by The Washington Post
Socialized Medicine? Not Quite
5 Myths About Health Care Around the World
by T.R. Reid

As Americans search for the cure to what ails our health-care system, we've overlooked an invaluable source of ideas and solutions: the rest of the world. All the other industrialized democracies have faced problems like ours, yet they've found ways to cover everybody -- and still spend far less than we do.

I've traveled the world from Oslo to Osaka to see how other developed democracies provide health care. Instead of dismissing these models as "socialist," we could adapt their solutions to fix our problems. To do that, we first have to dispel a few myths about health care abroad:



1. It's all socialized medicine out there.

Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans.

In some ways, health care is less "socialized" overseas than in the United States. Almost all Americans sign up for government insurance (Medicare) at age 65. In Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands, seniors stick with private insurance plans for life. Meanwhile, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs is one of the planet's purest examples of government-run health care.



2. Overseas, care is rationed through limited choices or long lines.

Generally, no. Germans can sign up for any of the nation's 200 private health insurance plans -- a broader choice than any American has. If a German doesn't like her insurance company, she can switch to another, with no increase in premium. The Swiss, too, can choose any insurance plan in the country.

In France and Japan, you don't get a choice of insurance provider; you have to use the one designated for your company or your industry. But patients can go to any doctor, any hospital, any traditional healer. There are no U.S.-style limits such as "in-network" lists of doctors or "pre-authorization" for surgery. You pick any doctor, you get treatment -- and insurance has to pay.

Canadians have their choice of providers. In Austria and Germany, if a doctor diagnoses a person as "stressed," medical insurance pays for weekends at a health spa.

As for those notorious waiting lists, some countries are indeed plagued by them. Canada makes patients wait weeks or months for nonemergency care, as a way to keep costs down. But studies by the Commonwealth Fund and others report that many nations -- Germany, Britain, Austria -- outperform the United States on measures such as waiting times for appointments and for elective surgeries.

In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment. One Thursday morning in Tokyo, I called the prestigious orthopedic clinic at Keio University Hospital to schedule a consultation about my aching shoulder. "Why don't you just drop by?" the receptionist said. That same afternoon, I was in the surgeon's office. Dr. Nakamichi recommended an operation. "When could we do it?" I asked. The doctor checked his computer and said, "Tomorrow would be pretty difficult. Perhaps some day next week?"



3. Foreign health-care systems are inefficient, bloated bureaucracies.

Much less so than here. It may seem to Americans that U.S.-style free enterprise -- private-sector, for-profit health insurance -- is naturally the most cost-effective way to pay for health care. But in fact, all the other payment systems are more efficient than ours.

U.S. health insurance companies have the highest administrative costs in the world; they spend roughly 20 cents of every dollar for nonmedical costs, such as paperwork, reviewing claims and marketing. France's health insurance industry, in contrast, covers everybody and spends about 4 percent on administration. Canada's universal insurance system, run by government bureaucrats, spends 6 percent on administration. In Taiwan, a leaner version of the Canadian model has administrative costs of 1.5 percent; one year, this figure ballooned to 2 percent, and the opposition parties savaged the government for wasting money.

The world champion at controlling medical costs is Japan, even though its aging population is a profligate consumer of medical care. On average, the Japanese go to the doctor 15 times a year, three times the U.S. rate. They have twice as many MRI scans and X-rays. Quality is high; life expectancy and recovery rates for major diseases are better than in the United States. And yet Japan spends about $3,400 per person annually on health care; the United States spends more than $7,000.



4. Cost controls stifle innovation.

False. The United States is home to groundbreaking medical research, but so are other countries with much lower cost structures. Any American who's had a hip or knee replacement is standing on French innovation. Deep-brain stimulation to treat depression is a Canadian breakthrough. Many of the wonder drugs promoted endlessly on American television, including Viagra, come from British, Swiss or Japanese labs.

Overseas, strict cost controls actually drive innovation. In the United States, an MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. Under the pressure of cost controls, Japanese researchers found ways to perform the same diagnostic technique for one-fifteenth the American price. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)



5. Health insurance has to be cruel.

Not really. American health insurance companies routinely reject applicants with a "preexisting condition" -- precisely the people most likely to need the insurers' service. They employ armies of adjusters to deny claims. If a customer is hit by a truck and faces big medical bills, the insurer's "rescission department" digs through the records looking for grounds to cancel the policy, often while the victim is still in the hospital. The companies say they have to do this stuff to survive in a tough business.

Foreign health insurance companies, in contrast, must accept all applicants, and they can't cancel as long as you pay your premiums. The plans are required to pay any claim submitted by a doctor or hospital (or health spa), usually within tight time limits. The big Swiss insurer Groupe Mutuel promises to pay all claims within five days. "Our customers love it," the group's chief executive told me. The corollary is that everyone is mandated to buy insurance, to give the plans an adequate pool of rate-payers.

The key difference is that foreign health insurance plans exist only to pay people's medical bills, not to make a profit. The United States is the only developed country that lets insurance companies profit from basic health coverage.

In many ways, foreign health-care models are not really "foreign" to America, because our crazy-quilt health-care system uses elements of all of them. For Native Americans or veterans, we're Britain: The government provides health care, funding it through general taxes, and patients get no bills. For people who get insurance through their jobs, we're Germany: Premiums are split between workers and employers, and private insurance plans pay private doctors and hospitals. For people over 65, we're Canada: Everyone pays premiums for an insurance plan run by the government, and the public plan pays private doctors and hospitals according to a set fee schedule. And for the tens of millions without insurance coverage, we're Burundi or Burma: In the world's poor nations, sick people pay out of pocket for medical care; those who can't pay stay sick or die.

This fragmentation is another reason that we spend more than anybody else and still leave millions without coverage. All the other developed countries have settled on one model for health-care delivery and finance; we've blended them all into a costly, confusing bureaucratic mess.

Which, in turn, punctures the most persistent myth of all: that America has "the finest health care" in the world. We don't. In terms of results, almost all advanced countries have better national health statistics than the United States does. In terms of finance, we force 700,000 Americans into bankruptcy each year because of medical bills. In France, the number of medical bankruptcies is zero. Britain: zero. Japan: zero. Germany: zero.

Given our remarkable medical assets -- the best-educated doctors and nurses, the most advanced hospitals, world-class research -- the United States could be, and should be, the best in the world. To get there, though, we have to be willing to learn some lessons about health-care administration from the other industrialized democracies.

© 2009 The Washington Post
T.R. Reid, a former Washington Post reporter, is the author of "The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care," to be published Monday.
 
Very well written article. Its amazing how everyone is afraid of "socialized" medicine. Our current sytem is a mess, and alomost everyone can agree on that. It amazing how the small minded people make the most noise. Its just fear of change.
 
grstarr said:
Very well written article. Its amazing how everyone is afraid of "socialized" medicine. Our current sytem is a mess, and alomost everyone can agree on that. It amazing how the small minded people make the most noise. Its just fear of change.

Really?...Fear of Change, is that all it is?

:lol:


Sorry to burst your bubble...but I think we all know for a fact, that every form of Socialized ( "Insert Name of Program") is essentially broken...


They may "appear" to work on the surface (few if any)..however the reality is that they are all broke, bankrupt (Literally and Morally ...aka ACORN) and all corrupt and all need to be scrapped and start over from the top down.

P.s. I believe your comments are Racially based.
 
Downwiththefoe said:
Really?...Fear of Change, is that all it is?

:lol:


Sorry to burst your bubble...but I think we all know for a fact, that every form of Socialized ( "Insert Name of Program") is essentially broken...


They may "appear" to work on the surface (few if any)..however the reality is that they are all broke, bankrupt (Literally and Morally ...aka ACORN) and all corrupt and all need to be scrapped and start over from the top down.

P.s. I believe your comments are Racially based.


Speaking of Acorn, it's amazing how the right (including centrist Democrats in the Senate who voted almost unanimously to defund ACORN) gets fired up over a relatively insignificant community organization that receives $3 million a year from the goverment while billions get spent (sometimes fraudently) on private contractors in Iraq and Aghanistan and trillions get spent to bailout socialistic Wall Street.

The poor, downtrodden minorities are the real threat to democracy.

Soft targets! :roll:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/09/17/acorn_hysteria/index.html
 
kalm said:
Speaking of Acorn, it's amazing how the right (including centrist Democrats in the Senate who voted almost unanimously to defund ACORN) gets fired up over a relatively insignificant community organization that receives $3 million a year from the goverment while billions get spent (sometimes fraudently) on private contractors in Iraq and Aghanistan and trillions get spent to bailout socialistic Wall Street.

The poor, downtrodden minorities are the real threat to democracy.

Soft targets! :roll:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/09/17/acorn_hysteria/index.html

Dig a little deeper into how much money they have been funneled just since Obammy took over.

Laughable funny apologist, ha ha a aaaaa

Next.
 
Downwiththefoe said:
Dig a little deeper into how much money they have been funneled just since Obammy took over.

Laughable funny apologist, ha ha a aaaaa

Next.


Or you could just enlighten me by posting something of substance from a source other than a bat-shit crazy birther/tea bagger website.

Laughable, googly-eyed, corporatist peasant. :D
 
kalm said:


Or you could just enlighten me by posting something of substance from a source other than a bat-shit crazy birther/tea bagger website.

Laughable, googly-eyed, corporatist peasant. :D

Sure..here is one quick google search:

This, just recently filed, right in the teeth of the "recent" scandal.

Rep. Boehner said :

Boehner noted that, “The House Democrats’ trillion-dollar spending bill also includes $1 billion for the Community Development Block Grant Program.” He then went on to point out that ACORN reports filed with the Office of Management and Budget shows that ACORN spent almost $1.6 million in federal taxpayer funds for the grants from 2003 through 2007. Now they are going to come back for more.

Boehner’s analysis also shows that ACORN has been awarded more than $53 million in taxpayer dollars over the last several years. This amount does not reflect the millions more ACORN has received in federal block grant funds awarded to state and local agencies which passed them on to ACORN.

How much more of my time can I spend?

You know as well as I do they are as corrupt an Org./operation as you can find in the modern political era.

Forget political allegiance for one minute before you answer that.
 
Like I said...

Congress is pulling their funding - that's fine, if they're corrupt make 'em pay. But it's a relative non-story compared with the fraud coming from the financial services industry or the defense contractors except that Glenn Beck told the loyal troops that it had something to do with helping the poor or brown skinned people.

Why don't you do a quick google search on the number of times Halliburton, Blackwater, or Goldman Sach's are mentioned versus ACORN on Fox or one of your other favorite "news" sources. :D
 
kalm said:
Like I said...

Congress is pulling their funding - that's fine, if they're corrupt make 'em pay. But it's a relative non-story compared with the fraud coming from the financial services industry or the defense contractors except that Glenn Beck told the loyal troops that it had something to do with helping the poor or brown skinned people.

Why don't you do a quick google search on the number of times Halliburton, Blackwater, or Goldman Sach's are mentioned versus ACORN on Fox or one of your other favorite "news" sources. :D

I'm WITH you Kalm...I'm not defending any of those douche-bags or their cronies that enabled them...I'm just sayin'...these corrupt bastards are one of Obama's pet project...he owed them, they would be getting paid had it not been for the independent journalism (I guess you call YOUTUBE that now?), and now he has thrown them under the bus like he did his preacher of 20 years.

Bury and survive those that weigh you down...

More to come, count on it.

P.s. I rarely watch TV..so don't clump me into that.
 
Then you'll surely agree with this article - the Sanders, Paul, Kucinich coalition is something we should all get behind:

Published on Monday, September 21, 2009 by The Guardian/UK
Break Up America's Banks
The populist anger about Obama's bank bailouts transcends politics. We need a banking system accountable to the public
by Dean Baker

The large number of people who protested against Barack Obama's healthcare plan in Washington last week drew an enormous amount of media attention. Clearly some of the leaders are certifiably crazy, questioning whether Obama is an American and likening him to Hitler. But many of the protesters had reasonable concerns about how the plan would affect the quality of care that they and their loved ones receive.

It was also striking how often the protesters complained about a government that was out of control and not responsive to ordinary people. One of the items that often came up in the interviews reported in the media was the bank bailout. Clearly this is an enduring and deeply felt cause of resentment.

It would be very hard to tell these people that their concerns on this topic are misplaced. At a time when tens of millions of people are facing unemployment or underemployment, when millions are at immediate risk of losing their homes, the banks seem to be doing better than ever. Goldman Sachs used its government-guaranteed loans to make risky bets that paid off big time. It now plans to distribute $9bn in bonuses to its executives and top traders at the end of the year. Why shouldn't the protesters be absolutely furious about an administration that used taxpayer dollars to make some of the richest people in the country even richer?

It would be great if the anger of these protesters could be turned in a productive direction. Instead of trying to prevent the government from extending healthcare coverage, how about going after the banks that pillaged the country?

The obvious place to start in this effort is the break-up of the "too big to fail" behemoths. It is now pretty much official policy that financial giants like Citigroup, Bank of America and Goldman Sachs will not be allowed to fail. If their bad investment decisions again bring them to the edge of bankruptcy, the federal government will again rush to the rescue, handing out whatever cash and loans are needed to keep the banks afloat.

This status gives these banks a clear edge in credit markets against their smaller competitors. If everyone knows that the government can be counted on to come to the rescue of these banks, then there is less risk in lending them money. Therefore, they pay lower interest rates than if they had to borrow in a free market.

The Obama administration has proposed to correct this inequity by having higher capital requirements and tighter restrictions on risk-taking that will make it undesirable for banks to be too big to fail. In principle, the government could impose restrictions that are sufficiently onerous to offset the advantages of the government safety net, but no one outside of the Obama administration believes this will happen.

The simpler course is to just break them up. We don't have to turn Citigroup and Bank of America into hundreds of small community banks, just large regional banks that can be safely put through a bankruptcy/resolution process if they mismanage their assets. My guess is that most of people protesting healthcare reform last weekend would support this idea.

A second issue likely to draw the support of the protesters is the democratisation of the Federal Reserve. There is already a left-right coalition in the House of Representatives behind a bill calling for an audit of the Fed.

This is a case where the centrist elites have shown complete contempt for the American public. In fact, Federal Reserve Board chairman Ben Bernanke had the gall to argue against an audit of the Fed, warning that it would lead to increased instability.

Did Bernanke forget that less than a year ago he told Congress that the policies pursued by him and his predecessor had brought the economy to the brink of a complete collapse? How do you get less stable than that? This is the sort of nonsense that shows the contempt that the elites have for the masses on both the left and right.

This suggests a great opportunity for a joint effort by the left and right to democratise the Fed. It is absurd that the US has a central bank that is more accountable to the financial industry than to the public.

A joint effort has enormous potential. It will be hard for the elites to even understand such a joint effort of the left and right against the centre. As an example, the New York Times actually asserted that the bill to audit the Fed has "250 Republican" co-sponsors in the House, ignoring the fact that the Republicans are a minority in the 435 seat chamber.

But the ignorance of the elite only increases the probability of success. And, if there is one thing this economic crisis demonstrates, the elite can be very very ignorant.
 
Hey guys, lets not forget the real vicitms here:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/041b5acaf5/protect-insurance-companies-psa
 
Re/MaxGriz said:
Hey guys, lets not forget the real vicitms here:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/041b5acaf5/protect-insurance-companies-psa

And just remember that next time you attend a tea-party event you are carrying the water for these victims and at least one of them somewhere, somehow is thinking "go gettum' boys."
 
Kucinich's wife... now there is somebody I could get behind, in front of, beside... all of the above.... :lol:
 
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