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Messy new rules

Basis for revisiting this old thread ... A very good article about the issue just posted on ESPN. He’s clearly talking about both football and basketball, so some of his points may apply to only one or the other.
https://www.espn.com/college-footba...rrived-college-football-looks-nba-free-agency

It’s quite a long article, so here are some key quotes:
“Alex Scarborough said:
Tampering has arrived in college football, and it looks like NBA free agency
...
They know if they wait for a quality player to enter the transfer portal to begin recruiting him, they're too late. So they've been reaching out to third parties and using players as go-betweens. It's a violation of NCAA rules, of course, but enforcement is nearly impossible.

A Power 5 defensive coordinator told VanHaaren he wouldn't bother recruiting high school players if he was at a place like Ball State. If he helps turn that player into an all-MAC type, "A school like us is going to come take him."

"So if they have someone who played with that kid in high school they can say, 'Reach out to so-and-so at Tennessee and see if he'd be interested in transferring,'" the assistant said. "That part is bulls---."

High school coaches and personal trainers are being used in much the same way. Technically, it's against NCAA rules for coaches to reach out to a third party to express interest in a player not yet in the portal, but who's to say that coach isn't calling to ask about a prospective high school athlete, which is perfectly legal? There's just too much plausible deniability.

Shaw said he has heard of schools that have a high school recruiting board and then another recruiting board just for college players. An SEC assistant suggested that soon we'll see separate directors of high school scouting and college scouting the same way the NFL has directors of pro and college scouting.
We're well on our way to that reality, an ACC assistant said, in which a so-called "transfer department" will monitor FCS and lower-level FBS games and make a list.

At least some coaches are coming to the realization that they can't complain about having to continually recruit half their roster to guard against them transferring without wondering why half their roster might want to leave in the first place. ["Half" applies mostly to basketball, I would say, but the principle's the same.]

"I think it's easy to say that someone tampered if you lose somebody," he [Arkansas coach Sam Pittman] added, "but in all honesty, we have to look at ourselves and internally in our program to say, 'Have we done all the things? Have we been honest and true? Have we built a relationship with us where he won't want to leave us?'"
 
I can understand transferring more in basketball than in football. Kids want playing time. If the player is behind some good players, the player probably isn't going to get much playing time in the near future. While hoops players can get hurt, they get hurt a lot more in football and more openings occur in football as a result. And football players can switch positions. With fewer basketball players on a team, and the closeness to the head coach, I assume more personality issues occur between players and coaches in hoops too.

One of the positives of college sports is having teams composed of players that stick around, and it's fun to watch them improve. A negative with pro sports is that the players move on so much and have no loyalty. I supposes bigtime college sports may lose that allure.

Again, old school here, I'd rather play with my friends and my team, and go to school and hang with my friends and the fun girls.
 
Buttegrizzle said:
Let’s just say with the velocity of the revolving door we’re gonna be needing those player names back on the jerseys...

let me finish that for you - attached with velcro
 
Montanabob said:
Buttegrizzle said:
Let’s just say with the velocity of the revolving door we’re gonna be needing those player names back on the jerseys...

let me finish that for you - attached with velcro

I feel like I've heard this before . . . from an old, cranky guy sucking down bourbon at the New Atlas Bar.
 
PlayerRep said:
I can understand transferring more in basketball than in football. Kids want playing time. If the player is behind some good players, the player probably isn't going to get much playing time in the near future. While hoops players can get hurt, they get hurt a lot more in football and more openings occur in football as a result. And football players can switch positions. With fewer basketball players on a team, and the closeness to the head coach, I assume more personality issues occur between players and coaches in hoops too.

One of the positives of college sports is having teams composed of players that stick around, and it's fun to watch them improve. A negative with pro sports is that the players move on so much and have no loyalty. I supposes bigtime college sports may lose that allure.

Again, old school here, I'd rather play with my friends and my team, and go to school and hang with my friends and the fun girls.
It's scary when you think about basketball, where just one or two key players can turn a program into a monster. The ESPN guy made another point (which I would have included had I been posting on the basketball forum):
"The f---ing players he went to high school with are doing it," he said. "They're recruiting each other."

A prominent 7-on-7 coach pointed to the rise of so-called superteams in the NBA. "It started with LeBron James," he said. "He's the one who made it a reality."

An SEC assistant added: "Everyone thinks they're LeBron, even if they haven't played a lick."
You think someone won't think about a college superteam? Sure, most of the top talents want to get into the NBA and make the big bucks. But suppose a college coach tells their superstar: "Hey, you need some help. We need another great three-point shooter to take some pressure off you. And a top point guard would help get you the ball in a position to score. Here's a couple names. See if they'd be interested in coming over. With you and them, we'd be a legit contender for an NCAA championship. Think what that would do for your draft status."

Unlikely? Perhaps, but I'm not so sure.
 
IdaGriz01 said:
PlayerRep said:
I can understand transferring more in basketball than in football. Kids want playing time. If the player is behind some good players, the player probably isn't going to get much playing time in the near future. While hoops players can get hurt, they get hurt a lot more in football and more openings occur in football as a result. And football players can switch positions. With fewer basketball players on a team, and the closeness to the head coach, I assume more personality issues occur between players and coaches in hoops too.

One of the positives of college sports is having teams composed of players that stick around, and it's fun to watch them improve. A negative with pro sports is that the players move on so much and have no loyalty. I supposes bigtime college sports may lose that allure.

Again, old school here, I'd rather play with my friends and my team, and go to school and hang with my friends and the fun girls.
It's scary when you think about basketball, where just one or two key players can turn a program into a monster. The ESPN guy made another point (which I would have included had I been posting on the basketball forum):
"The f---ing players he went to high school with are doing it," he said. "They're recruiting each other."

A prominent 7-on-7 coach pointed to the rise of so-called superteams in the NBA. "It started with LeBron James," he said. "He's the one who made it a reality."

An SEC assistant added: "Everyone thinks they're LeBron, even if they haven't played a lick."
You think someone won't think about a college superteam? Sure, most of the top talents want to get into the NBA and make the big bucks. But suppose a college coach tells their superstar: "Hey, you need some help. We need another great three-point shooter to take some pressure off you. And a top point guard would help get you the ball in a position to score. Here's a couple names. See if they'd be interested in coming over. With you and them, we'd be a legit contender for an NCAA championship. Think what that would do for your draft status."

Unlikely? Perhaps, but I'm not so sure.
It all ready happens all the time.

You think Duke got Williamson, Barrett, and Reddish because they were attracted to the fine academic tradition on Tobacco Road?

Is Gonzaga a power because all these kids love Catholicism, Dicks burgers, and telling Grandpa and Grandma that they go to "school that Bing Crosby" built?

They play AAU together or talk to each other at camps and on social media and voila, some coach is called a master recuiter.
 
SaskGriz said:
...
It all ready happens all the time.

You think Duke got Williamson, Barrett, and Reddish because they were attracted to the fine academic tradition on Tobacco Road?

Is Gonzaga a power because all these kids love Catholicism, Dicks burgers, and telling Grandpa and Grandma that they go to "school that Bing Crosby" built?

They play AAU together or talk to each other at camps and on social media and voila, some coach is called a master recruiter.
Well ... yeah.

I just think that now, with the one "free" transfer rule, it's likely to happen more often, and be more targeted in terms of players with specific, proven skills.
 
IdaGriz01 said:
SaskGriz said:
...
It all ready happens all the time.

You think Duke got Williamson, Barrett, and Reddish because they were attracted to the fine academic tradition on Tobacco Road?

Is Gonzaga a power because all these kids love Catholicism, Dicks burgers, and telling Grandpa and Grandma that they go to "school that Bing Crosby" built?

They play AAU together or talk to each other at camps and on social media and voila, some coach is called a master recruiter.
Well ... yeah.

I just think that now, with the one "free" transfer rule, it's likely to happen more often, and be more targeted in terms of players with specific, proven skills.
True
 
IdaGriz01 said:
PlayerRep said:
I can understand transferring more in basketball than in football. Kids want playing time. If the player is behind some good players, the player probably isn't going to get much playing time in the near future. While hoops players can get hurt, they get hurt a lot more in football and more openings occur in football as a result. And football players can switch positions. With fewer basketball players on a team, and the closeness to the head coach, I assume more personality issues occur between players and coaches in hoops too.

One of the positives of college sports is having teams composed of players that stick around, and it's fun to watch them improve. A negative with pro sports is that the players move on so much and have no loyalty. I supposes bigtime college sports may lose that allure.

Again, old school here, I'd rather play with my friends and my team, and go to school and hang with my friends and the fun girls.
It's scary when you think about basketball, where just one or two key players can turn a program into a monster. The ESPN guy made another point (which I would have included had I been posting on the basketball forum):
"The f---ing players he went to high school with are doing it," he said. "They're recruiting each other."

A prominent 7-on-7 coach pointed to the rise of so-called superteams in the NBA. "It started with LeBron James," he said. "He's the one who made it a reality."

An SEC assistant added: "Everyone thinks they're LeBron, even if they haven't played a lick."
You think someone won't think about a college superteam? Sure, most of the top talents want to get into the NBA and make the big bucks. But suppose a college coach tells their superstar: "Hey, you need some help. We need another great three-point shooter to take some pressure off you. And a top point guard would help get you the ball in a position to score. Here's a couple names. See if they'd be interested in coming over. With you and them, we'd be a legit contender for an NCAA championship. Think what that would do for your draft status."

Unlikely? Perhaps, but I'm not so sure.
Why would I think basketball on this site?
 
“Tampering” hits both football and basketball, but sticking strictly to football … the new rule(s) are indeed having a major impact … already. Here’s another (longish) article:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-f...s-the-portal-make-roster-management-tougher/

Some key quotes:
Dennis Dodd said:
If Jake Spavital isn't wheelin', he's dealin', all within the transfer portal. It is an accepted way of life these days for the 36-year-old Texas State coach.

While others are bemoaning the transactional nature of the portal, roster management and the new one-time transfer rule, Spavital has embraced all of it. More than three months after the traditional National Signing Day in February, he still has eight scholarships to offer.
The rest have gone to transfers, 11 of them. That after Spavital lost 12 players to the portal. He has not signed a high school prospect at Texas State in his Class of 2021. [My emphasis.]

"The hot topic is less and less high school kids are going to get recruited," Memphis coach Ryan Silverfield said. "If you're going to offer a kid who's a good player in high school and can transfer in two years [versus] getting a 'better' [transfer] player who can't leave you …"

For now some coaches are awarding scholarships to walk-ons to shore up rosters. While that may be the decent thing to do with surplus scholarships, it doesn't necessarily improve the overall talent level on the team. Imagine, then, coaches running off current high school recruits when something better appears in the portal. It's apparently happening.

"It's not the same game," New Mexico State coach Doug Martin said. "It's harder to develop players. At our level [in the Group of Five], you're not going to get the finished product. We had a defensive lineman who transferred to Arizona. He got taken in the sixth round. We'll become a feeder system for other people."
There’s more in the item about various other complications. I picked the quotes above because they address a point I made in an earlier post about a possible decline in the overall quality of play due to less time being spent on player development. Seems like it’s already happening.

Of course, it’s the usual “rich get richer” situation: The top programs will have no trouble maintaining a high level. They could even get better if they’re willing to “run off” their lesser talents so they can cherry-pick a proven better replacement from the portal. (And that’s where the issue of tampering comes back into play.) I believe we’ve already seen several such cases in the past few years, even when the "lesser talent" went to another FBS and had to sit out.
 
Not sure why everyone is upset about this. There still is a roster limit and those kids at bigger schools have to go somewhere if they are replaced by transfers. Eventually you will see more drop downs to schools like Montana and other mid majors. Chemistry will be harder to create and will probably create more hostility and variability in results....I would expect there are just as many kids that would love to leave a bigger program due to lack of playing time, than there are at smaller schools that have the ability to play in the power 5. Plus you always have that chance that players still just stay at their school because they love the program. I don’t think we should dictate a kids ability to be happy and find what they need to succeed just for our own goals of sports results. Sure fans would have to adapt. But the same talent pool that exists now will still exist. I would bet that there is a large group of undervalued kids sitting the bench at power 5 schools that with an opportunity to flourish they would.
 
mtgrizfankb said:
I would expect there are just as many kids that would love to leave a bigger program due to lack of playing time, than there are at smaller schools that have the ability to play in the power 5. Plus you always have that chance that players still just stay at their school because they love the program. I don’t think we should dictate a kids ability to be happy and find what they need to succeed just for our own goals of sports results. Sure fans would have to adapt. But the same talent pool that exists now will still exist. I would bet that there is a large group of undervalued kids sitting the bench at power 5 schools that with an opportunity to flourish they would.
Nothing changes for FBS players that want to step down to FCS; they've always been able to do that without sitting a year. So not so clear how this fits "messy new rules."
 
kemajic said:
mtgrizfankb said:
I would expect there are just as many kids that would love to leave a bigger program due to lack of playing time, than there are at smaller schools that have the ability to play in the power 5. Plus you always have that chance that players still just stay at their school because they love the program. I don’t think we should dictate a kids ability to be happy and find what they need to succeed just for our own goals of sports results. Sure fans would have to adapt. But the same talent pool that exists now will still exist. I would bet that there is a large group of undervalued kids sitting the bench at power 5 schools that with an opportunity to flourish they would.
Nothing changes for FBS players that want to step down to FCS; they've always been able to do that without sitting a year. So not so clear how this fits "messy new rules."

Because now FCS players can move up without sitting a year, and FBS players can transfer to other FBS teams without sitting a year. So, the "messy new rules" could create more displaced drop-downs than before. More than that, I'm kind of looking forward to hearing stories about behind-the-scenes "trades" in the FBS. Should be entertaining.
 
Where are all of those who think the athletes should be able to do what they want, and get paid on top of the 6 figure cost of college?
 
SoldierGriz said:
Where are all of those who think the athletes should be able to do what they want, and get paid on top of the 6 figure cost of college?

I’m here. Well, not get paid a salary from the school, but NIL opportunities for sure. Kinda missing the connection to be honest.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
SoldierGriz said:
Where are all of those who think the athletes should be able to do what they want, and get paid on top of the 6 figure cost of college?
I’m here. Well, not get paid a salary from the school, but NIL opportunities for sure. Kinda missing the connection to be honest.
As stated on the "Money Game" thread ...
AZGrizFan said:
The land of unintended consequences is vast.
Have no way to guess how the new rules (still TBD on the NIL policy) will play out and interact together.

But here's a thought: My gut tells me that the NIL money (however it's implemented) could/should actually reduce the transfer revolving door ... at least for top players who tap into mostly local revenue streams. If a guy/gal works out a sweet deal with, say, a string of local/regional car dealerships, he/she will be less likely to leave that on the table by moving.

It won't matter as much for athletes (whatever sport or sex) who land national deals for themselves (say ... Nike). Of course, individual deals with big national/international brands that already have team deals could become a major point of contention.
 
IdaGriz01 said:
CDAGRIZ said:
I’m here. Well, not get paid a salary from the school, but NIL opportunities for sure. Kinda missing the connection to be honest.
As stated on the "Money Game" thread ...
AZGrizFan said:
The land of unintended consequences is vast.
Have no way to guess how the new rules (still TBD on the NIL policy) will play out and interact together.

But here's a thought: My gut tells me that the NIL money (however it's implemented) could/should actually reduce the transfer revolving door ... at least for top players who tap into mostly local revenue streams. If a guy/gal works out a sweet deal with, say, a string of local/regional car dealerships, he/she will be less likely to leave that on the table by moving.

It won't matter as much for athletes (whatever sport or sex) who land national deals for themselves (say ... Nike). Of course, individual deals with big national/international brands that already have team deals could become a major point of contention.

I can see your point to an extent, but I have trouble thinking NIL rules will come into play with FCS (or UM level) athletes regarding transfer freedom rules.

I mean, if an FCS QB is making some side change from Wilkins Hyundai and Subaru ads, but USC wants him, I don’t think the car dealership revenue is gonna factor into his decision. Much more lucrative long term to make that switch and raise his profile regardless of whether Fletcher-Jones gives him ad reads. I agree, however, it might make a difference on the extreme fringes.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
IdaGriz01 said:
... here's a thought: My gut tells me that the NIL money (however it's implemented) could/should actually reduce the transfer revolving door ... at least for top players who tap into mostly local revenue streams. If a guy/gal works out a sweet deal with, say, a string of local/regional car dealerships, he/she will be less likely to leave that on the table by moving.

It won't matter as much for athletes (whatever sport or sex) who land national deals for themselves (say ... Nike). Of course, individual deals with big national/international brands that already have team deals could become a major point of contention.

I can see your point to an extent, but I have trouble thinking NIL rules will come into play with FCS (or UM level) athletes regarding transfer freedom rules.

I mean, if an FCS QB is making some side change from Wilkins Hyundai and Subaru ads, but USC wants him, I don’t think the car dealership revenue is gonna factor into his decision. Much more lucrative long term to make that switch and raise his profile regardless of whether Fletcher-Jones gives him ad reads. I agree, however, it might make a difference on the extreme fringes.
You make a good point, and your hypothetical example is surely correct. The chance to play at a high-profile FBS program vs any FCS would likely be a no-brainer. If you’re an FCS player good enough (and visible enough) to earn NIL dough, you’re probably getting plenty of playing time. So why would you transfer to another FCS school?

That suggests that the real impact will involve possible transfers from Group-of-5 to Power-5 programs. (Discussed in the “Money Game” thread.) There, you go from essentially no chance to play for a “national championship,” to at least an outside chance. And -- maybe -- you could go to a more prestigious bowl game. Not especially big incentives, IMO, but perhaps for the players. Then, I think, that “side change” could factor in.

That did trigger another notion that could go the other way at ALL levels. Naturally, it kinda goes along with the normal “rich get richer” theme. I do not want to pick any hypothetical examples … this notion also involves the “tampering” theme, and it would not be fair to suggest anything specific. We assume that the transfer would be between teams in two different Power-5 conferences, or two different Group-of-5, or even two different FSC.

Suppose you’re a big star at Pound-Sand U. in Podunk, Nowhere. Along comes a semi-promise (through former HS teammate or coach, personal trainer, etc.) that you’d sure be welcome at Slick U. in Big Metro, Wow. Your chances for lucrative outside NIL income just went through the roof. What would you do? So, along with playing time and the team "prestige," the potential for NIL income becomes part of the process to lure a player away from another program.

Which begs another related question: Who’s going to arrange these NIL deals? The NCAA (and probably the schools) would surely breath fire and flame over the idea that the players could have a personal agent. That’s way too much of a “slippery slope.” I, personally, think the NCAA and the schools will insist that all such dealing must go through the school … the Compliance Officer, perhaps. Big, big can of worms.
 
I know the first ncaa proposal required that the deals go through the university, but that just doesn't seem workable. Universities aren't set up to do that, don't have any expertise, and most won't have the money to pay for those things. And I assume there will be gray areas and cheating. Maybe the bigger contracts could be regulated. Eventually, I don't see how the ncaa will be able to keep and enforce their very restrictive rules related to extra benefits from boosters. Players can have local little advertising contracts and some big contracts, and agents, yet they can't have a hot dog at a tailgate or go to a fan's house for dinner too many times or get bought a round of drinks downtown? The tattoo parlor thing of Ohio St. would seem to be within the rules. Free tatoos for putting up signed photos in the shop or local advertising.

I just don't see how a narrow system can be set up or a system regulated by ncaa/schools.

Also, the federal and state legislation, and courts, are going to approve systems that are way broader than what the ncaa has been thinking. The ncaa has little or no control or leverage at this point.

Who's going to get the revenue from the sale of the start quarterback's jerseys? Or, how will it be split? Or, can the player set up a contract to make and sell his jersey separate from the college? Say through the Anderson's company Up Top in Missoula.

I don't care one way or another on this issue, but, to me, it's going to end up being wide open, or fairly wide open.
 
PlayerRep said:
I know the first ncaa proposal required that the deals go through the university, but that just doesn't seem workable. Universities aren't set up to do that, don't have any expertise, and most won't have the money to pay for those things.
...
I don't care one way or another on this issue, but, to me, it's going to end up being wide open, or fairly wide open.
Minor disagreement: Most universities do already have some ability to market "stuff" (jersey's, mugs, etc.) besides their educational offerings. They just don't happen to be very good at it (most of them). If they want to hold onto a piece of the pie, they'll just have to get better at it. After all: Who (supposedly) teaches all those marketers at the advertising agencies and companies big enough to have their own marketing departments?

As to the second point: Yeah, it could turn into a free-for-all, especially if tampering is as prevalent as the article I posted at the top of this page says. And the NCAA has almost no hope of "policing" that ... How will they get any better with whatever the new NIL policies are?
 
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