Question for Military & ex-military?

[Cuervohola]

I don't know why the CPT sent the email and decided not to include his immediate supervisor, but he didn't reach O-6 by breaking the Chain constantly. There had to be a good reason, and I would suspect the Admiral above him was probably keeping his lips shut so that nobody would hear about it.

I only remember 3 good quality Officers in my 12 years, and all of them were Mustangs.. (Rose to Non Commissioned Officer rank of E-5 or above before becoming an Officer) The rest were either West Pointers that didn't have a clue about how anything worked while having a God complex, or ROTC guys that knew less than Privates.

Now, I didn't dig that deep on this, but based on his crew cheering him as he left, I suspect I would have been one of them.

I was a mustang. Six years enlisted, 16 years as an officer. My guys liked me and respected me...mostly because they knew I’d been on the other side of the desk and when I told them to do something, they knew there was a time I’d done it myself.

My final take is this: It is NOT in a CO’s job description to be “popular”. It’s his job to ensure the ship is ready to fight at all times. Period. End of discussion. And it’s his job to make the hard decisions that are, many times, unpopular. The EASY decision was to piss and moan to the press and ask to quarantine the entire ship ashore. Of course the crew cheered him for that. The HARD decision would have been to continue to operate with reduced manpower—to stay on station like his orders no doubt required him to do until the ship could be properly relieved.

And the Acting SecNav may be a douche....nay, he is in all probability a douche....but whether HE decided to fire the CO or Trump ordered him to fire the CO, the end result is the same....it was the right decision. A loss of faith in his ability to command....(whether the crew “liked” him or not...).

Now I have to read up on what exactly happened.

 

[SoldierGriz]

Perfect illustration of the differences between services. In the Army, the Soldier is the weapon. There is nothing more important than taking care of those you're entrusted to lead.

I'd never sacrifice the men I lead for an Abrams, Bradley, Apache, Stryker, or Paladin. Never.

I don't think the Captain is totally clean in this...but, man the Navy is quick to fire leaders.

Easier to do when you can go back to the camp and just get another Abrams. Not so easy to do if you lose the carrier. :thumb:

Yep.

 

[AZGrizFan]

lol... you start your post saying that I should learn the facts, then go on to make about 15 ASSupmtions in this manifesto.... :roll: :roll:

Uhm like what are my 15 ASSUmptions in your learned opinion? My fact pattern was taken from public record and statements by the Navy as of today. Thanks for playing :thumb:

With nary a single link to back up all your assumptions....try again.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

Uhm like what are my 15 ASSUmptions in your learned opinion? My fact pattern was taken from public record and statements by the Navy as of today. Thanks for playing :thumb:

With nary a single link to back up all your assumptions....try again.

Damn. A civilian arguing with a 22 year Naval Officer about military law and procedures.

 

[Dutch Lane]

With nary a single link to back up all your assumptions....try again.

Damn. A civilian arguing with a 22 year Naval Officer about military law and procedures.

Oh my have I somehow over stepped the bounds of decency here on egriz? Are former military types sacrosanct because I really didn’t know that. What ever shall one do? :lol: :thumb:

I will try and get back to you with some, what do you want a source to a quote, the letter itself, tell me what you need their chief a rooni and I’ll see what I can glean from the internet and try and establish what my 15 assumptions are. Will you take judicial notice of say the ship docked in Da Nag and not Korea. And the port of call was part of the administrations on going trade war with China and our hegemony in the South China Sea? Also that ship left Da Nang with all crew testing negative for the virus? And the ship was docked in Gaum for like 4-5 days before the letter dropped, and also the letter it self? So how many assumptions did I cover just right there? must been at least half a dozen. Try and help me stream line the next manifesto of superfluous facts through judicial notice, okay? Thanks

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

Damn. A civilian arguing with a 22 year Naval Officer about military law and procedures.

Oh my have I somehow over stepped the bounds of decency here on egriz? Are former military types sacrosanct because I really didn’t know that. What ever shall one do? :lol: :thumb:

I will try and get back to you with some, what do you want a source to a quote, the letter itself, tell me what you need their chief a rooni and I’ll see what I can glean from the internet and try and establish what my 15 assumptions are. Will you take judicial notice of say the ship docked in Da Nag and not Korea. And the port of call was part of the administrations on going trade war with China and our hegemony in the South China Sea? Also that ship left Da Nang with all crew testing negative for the virus? And the ship was docked in Gaum for like 4-5 days before the letter dropped, and also the letter it self? So how many assumptions did I cover just right there? must been at least half a dozen. Try and help me stream line the next manifesto of superfluous facts through judicial notice, okay? Thanks

In actuality, this is where I place individuals such as you in a time such as this based upon your "rugged individualism" and arguments against an organization built upon order and discipline:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/coronavirus-idaho-bundy-patriot.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

The military, all five branches, are not for everyone. It takes a very special human to place the good of a society over their own creature comforts and be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice rather than utilize avenues outside their chain of command to cover-up their own lapse(s) in judgment. I use that element in the state to the west of Montana as a viable comparison to your uninformed argument and various rants against the chain of command and again will defer to those chosen to lead this great country over an outhouse lawyer, and again, I don't believe you'll comprehend the military ideal let alone jargon. Let the military and the UCMJ handle this serious cancer and keep it from spreading. The junior sailor who recorded the good Secretary's speech yesterday is also naive AND stupid as they evidently don't realize all cell transmissions are unsecure. That young mutinous sailor just ruined their career also.

 

[argh!]

sounds like a lot of military folks, and others, are calling for the removal of the navy head who did the firing. not for the firing, but for how he went about it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/politics/coronavirus-carrier-roosevelt-crozier.html

 

[AZGrizFan]

sounds like a lot of military folks, and others, are calling for the removal of the navy head who did the firing. not for the firing, but for how he went about it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/us/politics/coronavirus-carrier-roosevelt-crozier.html

That wouldn’t bother me either. He comes across as a gigantic douche nozzle.....It’s possible to fire someone and let them keep their dignity.

 

[Cuervohola]

I can't find any pictures of Modly in his Navy uniform, and it isn't mentioned what his rank was. There is nothing saying he had any disciplinary actions taken against him, and no mention of any medals received. It's like his entire backstory is fabricated.

I do like that he earned a Masters from Harvard in 2 years though... "Take THAT, Captain! No, I couldn't get that Bird pin thing, but I can fire your ass!"

 

[IdaGriz01]

I can't find any pictures of Modly in his Navy uniform, and it isn't mentioned what his rank was. There is nothing saying he had any disciplinary actions taken against him, and no mention of any medals received. It's like his entire backstory is fabricated.

I do like that he earned a Masters from Harvard in 2 years though... "Take THAT, Captain! No, I couldn't get that Bird pin thing, but I can fire your ass!"

https://www.military.com/daily-news...rier-crew-after-trump-hints-intervention.html

Not a particularly gracious apology, but there it is. A key phrase: "... said he had been blindsided when the letter went public ... " So he was super-pissed, vented, and now regrets it (some, anyway). If the prez does somehow "save" Crozier's career -- that probably won't help much. Would you want him in your command, given that he might blindside you the next time? And, realistically, it won't help much in getting a good civilian job.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

I can't find any pictures of Modly in his Navy uniform, and it isn't mentioned what his rank was. There is nothing saying he had any disciplinary actions taken against him, and no mention of any medals received. It's like his entire backstory is fabricated.

I do like that he earned a Masters from Harvard in 2 years though... "Take THAT, Captain! No, I couldn't get that Bird pin thing, but I can fire your ass!"

https://www.military.com/daily-news...rier-crew-after-trump-hints-intervention.html

Not a particularly gracious apology, but there it is. A key phrase: "... said he had been blindsided when the letter went public ... " So he was super-pissed, vented, and now regrets it (some, anyway). If the prez does somehow "save" Crozier's career -- that probably won't help much. Would you want him in your command, given that he might blindside you the next time? And, realistically, it won't help much in getting a good civilian job.

They both broke protocol and I believe the powers that be will act appropriately. Historically, think of Truman relieving two of our best Generals from WWII, Patton and MacArthur. At that level, there tends to be an over-inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement and when their tail feathers get clipped, there are always those, like me, who don't have all the facts and data and make erroneous assumptions just like a journalist. But ultimately, I believe whomever is the CIC will appoint sound investigation teams and make appropriate decisions and recommendations to Congress as to the future of those in charge. The military will definitely have the next man (or woman) up.

 

[SaskGriz]

Easier to do when you can go back to the camp and just get another Abrams. Not so easy to do if you lose the carrier. :thumb:

Yep.

How the hell would you lose a carrier, it's not like it's a set of car keys. Misplace it ? Those things are huge.
Somali Pirates? Zee Germans?

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

There's this also:

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/04/06/no-pentagon-response-so-far-after-acting-secnavs-remarks-denigrating-former-tr-commanding-officer/

 

[mcg]

https://www.military.com/daily-news...rier-crew-after-trump-hints-intervention.html

Not a particularly gracious apology, but there it is. A key phrase: "... said he had been blindsided when the letter went public ... " So he was super-pissed, vented, and now regrets it (some, anyway). If the prez does somehow "save" Crozier's career -- that probably won't help much. Would you want him in your command, given that he might blindside you the next time? And, realistically, it won't help much in getting a good civilian job.

They both broke protocol and I believe the powers that be will act appropriately. Historically, think of Truman relieving two of our best Generals from WWII, Patton and MacArthur. At that level, there tends to be an over-inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement and when their tail feathers get clipped, there are always those, like me, who don't have all the facts and data and make erroneous assumptions just like a journalist. But ultimately, I believe whomever is the CIC will appoint sound investigation teams and make appropriate decisions and recommendations to Congress as to the future of those in charge. The military will definitely have the next man (or woman) up.

Truman didn't relieve Patton, Patton was run over by horse drawn cart in Czech shortly after the war. MacArthur had to go, he was a terrible leader (he never spent a single night in Korea) and was not really well connected with reality.

 

[reinell30]

Amazing to me, I had no idea there were so many military experts on EGriz, Shit, I better contact the JCS and let them know there are some real smart strategists hiding on this site.

 

[hokeyfine]

navy secretary resigns.....

 

[Cuervohola]

navy secretary resigns.....

AKA he was Fired.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

They both broke protocol and I believe the powers that be will act appropriately. Historically, think of Truman relieving two of our best Generals from WWII, Patton and MacArthur. At that level, there tends to be an over-inflated sense of self-worth and entitlement and when their tail feathers get clipped, there are always those, like me, who don't have all the facts and data and make erroneous assumptions just like a journalist. But ultimately, I believe whomever is the CIC will appoint sound investigation teams and make appropriate decisions and recommendations to Congress as to the future of those in charge. The military will definitely have the next man (or woman) up.

Truman didn't relieve Patton, Patton was run over by horse drawn cart in Czech shortly after the war. MacArthur had to go, he was a terrible leader (he never spent a single night in Korea) and was not really well connected with reality.

We all know how he was killed. We don't get to read many of the conversations among Generals, however. No, Eisenhower did not formally relieve him, however he did lose his command at Truman's directive and MacArthur would not afford him the opportunity to command again. There's a wealth of information available online but it's not as extensive as what is at Fort Leavenworth where I once had to grade book reports for officers going through Command and General Staff. I believe many of the Operation Orders from certain conflicts such as Normandy are public now. They make great reads actually. Check out the War College library also. This is about as accurate as one can find, however brief it may be:

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2018/06/11/general-george-s-patton-jr-death-final-days/

Anyway, great technicality and subject to interpretation stating he wasn't relieved of command.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Yep.

How the hell would you lose a carrier, it's not like it's a set of car keys. Misplace it ? Those things are huge.
Somali Pirates? Zee Germans?

I’ll let you think about that for a minute....

 

[AZGrizFan]

Truman didn't relieve Patton, Patton was run over by horse drawn cart in Czech shortly after the war. MacArthur had to go, he was a terrible leader (he never spent a single night in Korea) and was not really well connected with reality.

We all know how he was killed. We don't get to read many of the conversations among Generals, however. No, Eisenhower did not formally relieve him, however he did lose his command at Truman's directive and MacArthur would not afford him the opportunity to command again. There's a wealth of information available online but it's not as extensive as what is at Fort Leavenworth where I once had to grade book reports for officers going through Command and General Staff. I believe many of the Operation Orders from certain conflicts such as Normandy are public now. They make great reads actually. Check out the War College library also. This is about as accurate as one can find, however brief it may be:

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2018/06/11/general-george-s-patton-jr-death-final-days/

Anyway, great technicality and subject to interpretation stating he wasn't relieved of command.

Lol...he wasn’t relieved, but he did spend 11 months without a command....go figure... :lol: