Dire story about NCAA basketball coaches

[PlayerRep]

That is exactly my point. What is the FBI/DOJ doing wasting time and resources on college basketball? There are many bigger things to focus on. Let the ncaa do its own (shoddy) work.

And what is the ncaa doing, going after UM for hot dogs and tiny stuff--and giving the big boys a pass?

And what is the ncaa doing going after Penn St, when no ncaa athletes were involved (only a former ncaa coach)--and not looking into Mich. St/Nasser, in which there were many ncaa athletes being abused?

Had dinner with my friend, a federal judge, Saturday night. As soon as I mentioned that agents were bribing coaches to get kids to sign up with their agencies, he said, "Wire fraud." This is a judge who has been hearing federal criminal cases for 25 plus years, and he recognized right away the issue.

Of course, the other issue that will likely arise if these alleged payments are verified is tax evasion. Anybody think these assistant coaches or the players' families are reporting this extra "income?"

It isn't wire fraud unless money was "wired". And it isn't wire fraud to wire money in general. Only if there is an underlying crime.

What's your basis for saying these were "bribes"? Shoe companies pay schools and coaches to wear their products. That's not a bribe. Please cite us to where/why this is a "bribe".

Yup, agree with the tax evasion.

From the USA Today coverage of the case:
According to the complaint issued by federal prosecutors in late September, the four coaches committed fraud and corruption as it pertains to the recruitment of potential student-athletes, including counts of conspiracy to commit bribery and solicitation of bribes and gratuities.

Yes, the article says what the charge said. Just because the government alleges something was bribery doesn't mean it's bribery. I'm asking you to how this payment constituted "bribery". It generally isn't bribery to pay money to someone for something. There has to be a statute. Like you can't pay an elected official to get something from the government.

And do you think it should be against the law for a shoe company to provide money to someone to give to a recruit's parent or recruit so that the kid comes to the school where the shoe company has a contract? I understand that that would violate current ncaa rules. But schools get to "bribe" recruits to come to their school, with a scholarship. Coaches get to get "bribed" by sportswear companies to support their products. Schools get to get "bribed" by shoe companies to use their products. Is Nike "bribing" UM with its contract.

And companies and law firms get to "bribe" potential employees to join their firms by paying them "signing bonuses".

I just don't understand why what was done in some of these cases should be illegal or deemed to be a bribe, when it looks like only an ncaa violation to me.

 

[grizpack]

Simple solution to decrease the odds of schools and the NCAA having to deal with these kind of things. Give the athletes (all sports) the right to promote themselves (within reasonable financial benefits) and sign their own sponsorship deals. Also, get rid of the "1 and done". I feel the kids that are talented enough to play in the NBA should be able to do so, right out of HS.

As it is, the kids are being used and penalized by their coaches, schools, and the NCAA. I don't fault them one bit. Speaking of coaches, not sure which coaches I am more upset and disappointed with? The coaches that are taking $$$$$ to steer the players toward a program, or the NCAA coaches that are part of this?

I do hope every coach involved in this crap loses their livelihood. I hope and pray, somehow soon, college athletics will be cleaned up.

How about the NCAA make the same rule for all sports. Currently, you have basketball (1 and done), football (I think it is 2 or 3 years), and baseball where you can go immediately, but if you go to college, you have to stay for 3 years. That is typical NCAA. Make it up as you go along.

 

[PlayerRep]

This article explains the basis of the charges, or some of them, especially bribery. Coaches are "agents of federally funded organizations" because the schools more than $10,000 from the government--even though the government doesn't fund college basketball programs. Wow, that's a huge stretch.

"The feds are charging four former assistant coaches at Division I schools as “agents of federally funded organizations.” They can do that because all of their former schools do more than $10,000 a year in business with the federal government, whether through grants, loans, contracts, or other collaborations. These schools’ college basketball programs have just about nothing to do with the federal government, but the Justice Department is using a broader anti-corruption law to target those coaches.

Two business associates who’d started a sports management company together, Christian Dawkins and Munish Sood, are accused of making those bribes to coaches, in the hope that they’d steer players to sign with their company when they turned pro. Rashan Michel, the founder and operator of an Atlanta clothing company, is accused of similarly bribing Person to get the former Auburn coach to direct players to his business.

“Fraud” comes up a lot on the list of charges against the 10 defendants. In fact, all of them are facing at least two fraud charges, while Dawkins and Sood face four apiece. The feds say that the universities these coaches worked for were victims of fraud because they were misled in the schemes and thus exposed to significant risk."

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/2/25/17048132/fbi-ncaa-investigation-charges-crimes

 

[grizpack]

Assuming a few good head coaches will get fired over this, although it already sounds like all the facts in the ESPN report aren't quite accurate. If the Griz continue their run this season, what are the odds that Travis gets an upgraded job? Just curious what others think.

 

[Buttegrizzle]

If the NCAA sanctions those programs with long term scholarship losses, post season bans and etc., those big time jobs might be less than attractive right now. That said, I’m sure TDC will be the subject of some hiring discussions, even without the scandals.

 

[ilovethecats]

"Lonzo Ball on college basketball: ‘Everybody knows everybody’s getting paid. Might as well make it legal’"

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lonzo-ball-college-basketball-everybody-212801293.html

I doubt that everybody is getting paid. I am sure quite a few of the top stars at the top programs are getting financial benefits. As tired as I am of the Ball family, I do agree with having a place for top HS and College players to play for money before making the NBA. I really would like to see NCAA athletics be for true student athletes. Players that can and will commit no less than 3 years to scholarships. I wish more players would do what Brandon Jennings did and go play professionally overseas until they are eligible for the NBA draft.

I'd even be happy with having a NBA minor league system, similar to the G League, but more expansive. I love the system in place with professional baseball. The various levels of minor leagues (Rookie, A, AA, AAA) is terrific. It allows player to play against the level of competition they can handle and comfortably develop their skills. The advanced players for their age get to the Majors at a pretty good pace, and a lot of time and money are not wasted on the process.

Football also has a pretty fair system in place. Then again, the importance of physical development is so much more of a factor in football. Very few players are players physically mature enough to play well in the NFL before the age of 21.

As for the NCAA, I honestly hope this leads to NCAA athletics being cleaned up and the swamp drained. Then again, the end of the current NCAA structure might be what is needed in college athletics. College athletics was not originally designed to be the land of the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. Unfortunately, it has become just that.

excellent post. this is a huge problem and one that won't be a quick fix. but the ncaa is just awful. it's so obvious that they care about nothing but money. it's a joke they pretend to care about the student athlete.

at the very least these kids should be able to make money off their likeness. whether it's billboards, season tickets, video games, posters, jerseys, bobbleheads, etc. I don't care what it is. if you're using their names and their faces there is no reason whatsoever they shouldn't be compensated.

i'll go a step farther and say they should be allowed endorsements in college as well. if a company, any company whether it's Nike or Universal Athletic, wants to dish out the money why not?

and finally, forcing kids to play 1-2 years of college in hoops and football is ridiculous. there is not one benefit to the athlete, only money to be made by the university and ncaa.

the whole thing is broken and needs to be fixed or the corruption is only going to get worse. I think a coach paying a player 100K to sign is beyond unethical. however, this will only be the tip of the iceberg in my opinion if something isn't done about the greed of the ncaa.

 

[PlayerRep]

"Lonzo Ball on college basketball: ‘Everybody knows everybody’s getting paid. Might as well make it legal’"

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lonzo-ball-college-basketball-everybody-212801293.html

I doubt that everybody is getting paid. I am sure quite a few of the top stars at the top programs are getting financial benefits. As tired as I am of the Ball family, I do agree with having a place for top HS and College players to play for money before making the NBA. I really would like to see NCAA athletics be for true student athletes. Players that can and will commit no less than 3 years to scholarships. I wish more players would do what Brandon Jennings did and go play professionally overseas until they are eligible for the NBA draft.

I'd even be happy with having a NBA minor league system, similar to the G League, but more expansive. I love the system in place with professional baseball. The various levels of minor leagues (Rookie, A, AA, AAA) is terrific. It allows player to play against the level of competition they can handle and comfortably develop their skills. The advanced players for their age get to the Majors at a pretty good pace, and a lot of time and money are not wasted on the process.

Football also has a pretty fair system in place. Then again, the importance of physical development is so much more of a factor in football. Very few players are players physically mature enough to play well in the NFL before the age of 21.

As for the NCAA, I honestly hope this leads to NCAA athletics being cleaned up and the swamp drained. Then again, the end of the current NCAA structure might be what is needed in college athletics. College athletics was not originally designed to be the land of the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. Unfortunately, it has become just that.

excellent post. this is a huge problem and one that won't be a quick fix. but the ncaa is just awful. it's so obvious that they care about nothing but money. it's a joke they pretend to care about the student athlete.

at the very least these kids should be able to make money off their likeness. whether it's billboards, season tickets, video games, posters, jerseys, bobbleheads, etc. I don't care what it is. if you're using their names and their faces there is no reason whatsoever they shouldn't be compensated.

i'll go a step farther and say they should be allowed endorsements in college as well. if a company, any company whether it's Nike or Universal Athletic, wants to dish out the money why not?

and finally, forcing kids to play 1-2 years of college in hoops and football is ridiculous. there is not one benefit to the athlete, only money to be made by the university and ncaa.

the whole thing is broken and needs to be fixed or the corruption is only going to get worse. I think a coach paying a player 100K to sign is beyond unethical. however, this will only be the tip of the iceberg in my opinion if something isn't done about the greed of the ncaa.

Not disagreeing, but, if there were no ncaa rules, why would a coach paying a player 100K to sign be "beyond unethical"? Look what NFL teams pay players to sign. Millions for top players. A company can pay an employee a 100K bonus to sign. Is it only the ncaa rules that make it "beyond unethical"? And, if it's only the ncaa rules, then why should the 100K payment be deemed to be a federal criminal violation, as opposed to a big ncaa violation?

 

[ilovethecats]

"Lonzo Ball on college basketball: ‘Everybody knows everybody’s getting paid. Might as well make it legal’"

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/lonzo-ball-college-basketball-everybody-212801293.html

I doubt that everybody is getting paid. I am sure quite a few of the top stars at the top programs are getting financial benefits. As tired as I am of the Ball family, I do agree with having a place for top HS and College players to play for money before making the NBA. I really would like to see NCAA athletics be for true student athletes. Players that can and will commit no less than 3 years to scholarships. I wish more players would do what Brandon Jennings did and go play professionally overseas until they are eligible for the NBA draft.

I'd even be happy with having a NBA minor league system, similar to the G League, but more expansive. I love the system in place with professional baseball. The various levels of minor leagues (Rookie, A, AA, AAA) is terrific. It allows player to play against the level of competition they can handle and comfortably develop their skills. The advanced players for their age get to the Majors at a pretty good pace, and a lot of time and money are not wasted on the process.

Football also has a pretty fair system in place. Then again, the importance of physical development is so much more of a factor in football. Very few players are players physically mature enough to play well in the NFL before the age of 21.

As for the NCAA, I honestly hope this leads to NCAA athletics being cleaned up and the swamp drained. Then again, the end of the current NCAA structure might be what is needed in college athletics. College athletics was not originally designed to be the land of the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. Unfortunately, it has become just that.

excellent post. this is a huge problem and one that won't be a quick fix. but the ncaa is just awful. it's so obvious that they care about nothing but money. it's a joke they pretend to care about the student athlete.

at the very least these kids should be able to make money off their likeness. whether it's billboards, season tickets, video games, posters, jerseys, bobbleheads, etc. I don't care what it is. if you're using their names and their faces there is no reason whatsoever they shouldn't be compensated.

i'll go a step farther and say they should be allowed endorsements in college as well. if a company, any company whether it's Nike or Universal Athletic, wants to dish out the money why not?

and finally, forcing kids to play 1-2 years of college in hoops and football is ridiculous. there is not one benefit to the athlete, only money to be made by the university and ncaa.

the whole thing is broken and needs to be fixed or the corruption is only going to get worse. I think a coach paying a player 100K to sign is beyond unethical. however, this will only be the tip of the iceberg in my opinion if something isn't done about the greed of the ncaa.

Not disagreeing, but, if there were no ncaa rules, why would a coach paying a player 100K to sign be "beyond unethical"? Look what NFL teams pay players to sign. Millions for top players. A company can pay an employee a 100K bonus to sign. Is it only the ncaa rules that make it "beyond unethical"? And, if it's only the ncaa rules, then why should the 100K payment be deemed to be a federal criminal violation, as opposed to a big ncaa violation?

i may have worded that wrong. i feel like it is beyond unethical right now. whether the ncaa is greedy or not, these are the rules and the coaches know it.

we know dirty stuff is going on in college athletics. i won't be shocked if even bigger names come out in the future as far as coaches paying players to play.

my personal opinion is that if we take steps to take care of the athletes making so much money, much of this stuff will go away. if we stop forcing kids to go to college even more will go away. and if we see these steps being taken and sleezy coaches are still going beyond what is allowed we throw the book at them!

but with the current rules as they are set, i don't believe it is ethical for a head coach to sneak a potential player a bunch of money to sign. and i don't believe it is ethical for the players to take the money either even though i feel like they are currently getting dicked. kinda the "two wrongs don't make a right" kinda deal.

but i see what you're saying.

 

[PlayerRep]

I doubt that everybody is getting paid. I am sure quite a few of the top stars at the top programs are getting financial benefits. As tired as I am of the Ball family, I do agree with having a place for top HS and College players to play for money before making the NBA. I really would like to see NCAA athletics be for true student athletes. Players that can and will commit no less than 3 years to scholarships. I wish more players would do what Brandon Jennings did and go play professionally overseas until they are eligible for the NBA draft.

I'd even be happy with having a NBA minor league system, similar to the G League, but more expansive. I love the system in place with professional baseball. The various levels of minor leagues (Rookie, A, AA, AAA) is terrific. It allows player to play against the level of competition they can handle and comfortably develop their skills. The advanced players for their age get to the Majors at a pretty good pace, and a lot of time and money are not wasted on the process.

Football also has a pretty fair system in place. Then again, the importance of physical development is so much more of a factor in football. Very few players are players physically mature enough to play well in the NFL before the age of 21.

As for the NCAA, I honestly hope this leads to NCAA athletics being cleaned up and the swamp drained. Then again, the end of the current NCAA structure might be what is needed in college athletics. College athletics was not originally designed to be the land of the HAVES and HAVE NOTS. Unfortunately, it has become just that.

excellent post. this is a huge problem and one that won't be a quick fix. but the ncaa is just awful. it's so obvious that they care about nothing but money. it's a joke they pretend to care about the student athlete.

at the very least these kids should be able to make money off their likeness. whether it's billboards, season tickets, video games, posters, jerseys, bobbleheads, etc. I don't care what it is. if you're using their names and their faces there is no reason whatsoever they shouldn't be compensated.

i'll go a step farther and say they should be allowed endorsements in college as well. if a company, any company whether it's Nike or Universal Athletic, wants to dish out the money why not?

and finally, forcing kids to play 1-2 years of college in hoops and football is ridiculous. there is not one benefit to the athlete, only money to be made by the university and ncaa.

the whole thing is broken and needs to be fixed or the corruption is only going to get worse. I think a coach paying a player 100K to sign is beyond unethical. however, this will only be the tip of the iceberg in my opinion if something isn't done about the greed of the ncaa.

Not disagreeing, but, if there were no ncaa rules, why would a coach paying a player 100K to sign be "beyond unethical"? Look what NFL teams pay players to sign. Millions for top players. A company can pay an employee a 100K bonus to sign. Is it only the ncaa rules that make it "beyond unethical"? And, if it's only the ncaa rules, then why should the 100K payment be deemed to be a federal criminal violation, as opposed to a big ncaa violation?

i may have worded that wrong. i feel like it is beyond unethical right now. whether the ncaa is greedy or not, these are the rules and the coaches know it.

we know dirty stuff is going on in college athletics. i won't be shocked if even bigger names come out in the future as far as coaches paying players to play.

my personal opinion is that if we take steps to take care of the athletes making so much money, much of this stuff will go away. if we stop forcing kids to go to college even more will go away. and if we see these steps being taken and sleezy coaches are still going beyond what is allowed we throw the book at them!

but with the current rules as they are set, i don't believe it is ethical for a head coach to sneak a potential player a bunch of money to sign. and i don't believe it is ethical for the players to take the money either even though i feel like they are currently getting dicked. kinda the "two wrongs don't make a right" kinda deal.

but i see what you're saying.

I agree with your 4th para. I just don't see why it should be a federal crime, as opposed to a serious ncaa violation and highly unethical. Thx.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Not disagreeing, but, if there were no ncaa rules, why would a coach paying a player 100K to sign be "beyond unethical"? Look what NFL teams pay players to sign. Millions for top players. A company can pay an employee a 100K bonus to sign. Is it only the ncaa rules that make it "beyond unethical"? And, if it's only the ncaa rules, then why should the 100K payment be deemed to be a federal criminal violation, as opposed to a big ncaa violation?

Agreed 100%.

 

[ilovethecats]

Not disagreeing, but, if there were no ncaa rules, why would a coach paying a player 100K to sign be "beyond unethical"? Look what NFL teams pay players to sign. Millions for top players. A company can pay an employee a 100K bonus to sign. Is it only the ncaa rules that make it "beyond unethical"? And, if it's only the ncaa rules, then why should the 100K payment be deemed to be a federal criminal violation, as opposed to a big ncaa violation?

Agreed 100%.

I agree with that too.

 

[Zirg]

To be honest:I did not read this whole article, but the NCAA has NEVER imposed sanctions on any school during a season,have they? All they do is "remove" National Championships or whatever years later which doesn't affect anyone involved in the cheating. If they want to make a stand, then ban Michigan State (or Kentucky) from the tourney THIS year, which we all know will never happen.

 

[cmtgrizzly]

I am actually against paying college athletes. I am good with paying a cost of attendance scholarship though. I think they should have some money to buy food off campus and some reasonable entertainment/clothes money. Similar to having a typical college job because the athletes spend plenty of time outside of class on their sport to earn it.

I am not for paying them beyond that. Amateur sports should stay amateur. I think paying these kids a bunch of money makes them no different than professionals and I do think it would change the way many people feel about college athletics. I enjoy them more than professional sports in most cases. I also wish a college education and the chance to develop into a professional level athlete and essentially sell yourself into a high-paying professional career by playing well was more valued. Yes I think the NCAA needs to be completely overhauled but I do think there needs to be a college athletics oversight committee of some kind.

Although some of the absolute top notch college basketball players may be able to handle the pressure of getting paid I think the pressure and expectation of getting paid relatively large sums of money would be detrimental to many. Fans would almost certainly be less tolerant of poor play and poor behavior. Coaches probably would be too. I wonder if those in favor of paying athletes would also be ready to take away that money the next year if the kid didnt perform. Significant monetary fines for bad behavior? Take away money for dirty fouls, flippping off fans on tv, yelling at refs etc? Again it would completely change college athletics.

Maybe a farm system similar to baseball would be the right path. Many athletes dont want to go to college and deal with academics. Why make them? For those who fail to make it as an athlete, they can go back to college later if they want to when they value the education more. This would change college athletics some as well as some of the best would choose to not attend college.

I also wonder where these backdoor payments would stop. Would agents contact high school kids (yes I know they already do this) and start paying them to join certain organization's farm teams or if good enough directly to a professional team. Junior high kids? Would kids be allowed to leave high school early to join a farm club? I dont know the law but I know it is not required that kids finish high school and can leave at some age. Maybe after 16 years old?

I am not sure of the right answer but I do think paying college kids a significant salary would change college athletics completely and I think I would be very disappointed with the result.

 

[PlayerRep]

CMT, I agree with much of what you said. However, I don't think it's right for schools to make so much money from the players (like for jerseys, etc. and without sharing it) and for coaches to be paid so much. The players put in huge effort. The small cost stipend was an improvement, but only some schools can do that. I think either the schools shouldn't be able to use the players to make money (the shirts, etc.) or there should be a way to share some of it with the players. I suppose this may not apply to schools like UM.

Also note that, while I don't think this is realistic, I have said for a long time that there shouldn't be athletic scholarships, only scholarships based more on need. Again, not trying to say that is realistic. Like you, I am an amateur guy, but much of that has gone out the window over the decades.

 

[cmtgrizzly]

CMT, I agree with much of what you said. However, I don't think it's right for schools to make so much money from the players (like for jerseys, etc. and without sharing it) and for coaches to be paid so much. The players put in huge effort. The small cost stipend was an improvement, but only some schools can do that. I think either the schools shouldn't be able to use the players to make money (the shirts, etc.) or there should be a way to share some of it with the players. I suppose this may not apply to schools like UM.

Also note that, while I don't think this is realistic, I have said for a long time that there shouldn't be athletic scholarships, only scholarships based more on need. Again, not trying to say that is realistic. Like you, I am an amateur guy, but much of that has gone out the window over the decades.

I agree. The amount of money made by college atheltics is massive. There must be something that can be done to direct those funds to meaningful ventures. It would be interesting to have a formal review of each schools athletic earnings and where that money goes. Maybe it can be put into an account to be divided among all college athletics. Despite our athletic success UM still doesnt pay for itself in total I dont think. Maybe it is unfair for the more profitable programs to help fund less profitable programs but I think it maybe better than what is happening with the money currently. Maybe it can be put into a federal account to support education at the elementary, middle school, high school levels. Maybe some of it can be put into health insurance for the college athletes so they and their families arent having to be burdened by injuries suffered while playing. I guess in the end I just dont know how much money is being generated out there nor where it is all going. Shouldnt we get to know? Most are public, federally supported institutions. If kids are good enough to make money off of their talents set up a legitmate system to do so. It just shouldnt be at a college and cloaked by the mask of a college education.