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No Way JJ Can Be Convicted

getgrizzy said:
nzone said:
BDizzle said:
there's physical evidence

What is the physical evidence?
red mark on her chest consistent with someone pinning her down. abrasions around and inside the vaginal area consistent with someone missing the mark and penetrating an unstimulated vagina. can all that be explained? probably, but that is yet to be seen.

Red mark was explained by a pimple. And if he hit it from behind why would there be a mark on her chest? Abrasions can also be explained by regular sex. Especially if he was a little tipsy. So yes that can all easily be explained to add doubt to the jurors which equals acquittal.
 
crackgina said:
Way to read stuff into the physical report. Let's try: red mark consistent with the flush that comes over some liars. Jesus you are pushing your agenda.
haha, i only seem like i have an agenda to you because i'm being objective and you're (like many others) too emotionally attached to this situation.

this isn't a slam dunk case, but it favors j.j. and he'll probably win an acquittal. he may end up getting expelled anyway or beat out for the q.b. job if he isn't expelled. she seems to just want him out of town and there was talk of j.j. looking at transferring prior to the charges. if both parties are o.k. with that, then doesn't it seem like it would be in their best interests to work out a deal and not drag themselves through what appears to be a lengthy trial, which in the end isn't going to have convincing evidence for either of them.
 
BDizzle said:
getgrizzy said:
nzone said:
BDizzle said:
there's physical evidence

What is the physical evidence?
red mark on her chest consistent with someone pinning her down. abrasions around and inside the vaginal area consistent with someone missing the mark and penetrating an unstimulated vagina. can all that be explained? probably, but that is yet to be seen.

Red mark was explained by a pimple. And if he hit it from behind why would there be a mark on her chest? Abrasions can also be explained by regular sex. Especially if he was a little tipsy. So yes that can all easily be explained to add doubt to the jurors which equals acquittal.

c'mon, lets get real. you realize of course that there's an attorney for each side of the argument. the prosecution, the examiner and its experts aren't go to describe the red mark as a pimple.
 
getgrizzy said:
crackgina said:
Way to read stuff into the physical report. Let's try: red mark consistent with the flush that comes over some liars. Jesus you are pushing your agenda.
haha, i only seem like i have an agenda to you because i'm being objective and you're (like many others) too emotionally attached to this situation.

this isn't a slam dunk case, but it favors j.j. and he'll probably win an acquittal. he may end up getting expelled anyway or beat out for the q.b. job if he isn't expelled. she seems to just want him out of town and there was talk of j.j. looking at transferring prior to the charges. if both parties are o.k. with that, then doesn't it seem like it would be in their best interests to work out a deal and not drag themselves through what appears to be a lengthy trial, which in the end isn't going to have convincing evidence for either of them.

You add a bunch of conjecture to physical findings and you are objective? Brother you have a problem with objectivity. Look the word up and get back to me.
 
getgrizzy said:
BDizzle said:
getgrizzy said:
nzone said:
What is the physical evidence?
red mark on her chest consistent with someone pinning her down. abrasions around and inside the vaginal area consistent with someone missing the mark and penetrating an unstimulated vagina. can all that be explained? probably, but that is yet to be seen.

Red mark was explained by a pimple. And if he hit it from behind why would there be a mark on her chest? Abrasions can also be explained by regular sex. Especially if he was a little tipsy. So yes that can all easily be explained to add doubt to the jurors which equals acquittal.

c'mon, lets get real. you realize of course that there's an attorney for each side of the argument. the prosecution, the examiner and its experts aren't go to describe the red mark as a pimple.

I agree that the prosecution will say it was because of forced sex. I also believe the defense will bring their own examiner and expert that will say it could very easily be caused by a pimple. And there you go...doubt in the jurors.
 
crackgina said:
Old man I never assumed the accuser was guilty. Show me the post. I said she has inconsistencies in HER own statements and texts. That is fact.


And The "inconsistencies" you refer to come from the motion (including JJ's statement,) not the charging document. I would hope they are inconsistent otherwise JJ should have plead guilty. And your motivation in pointing them out is.......... I certainly am hoping you are not at close to age 50 claiming to be fluent in "text speak" and resting your theory on interpretation of a foreign language....
 
crackgina said:
getgrizzy said:
crackgina said:
Way to read stuff into the physical report. Let's try: red mark consistent with the flush that comes over some liars. Jesus you are pushing your agenda.
haha, i only seem like i have an agenda to you because i'm being objective and you're (like many others) too emotionally attached to this situation.

this isn't a slam dunk case, but it favors j.j. and he'll probably win an acquittal. he may end up getting expelled anyway or beat out for the q.b. job if he isn't expelled. she seems to just want him out of town and there was talk of j.j. looking at transferring prior to the charges. if both parties are o.k. with that, then doesn't it seem like it would be in their best interests to work out a deal and not drag themselves through what appears to be a lengthy trial, which in the end isn't going to have convincing evidence for either of them.

You add a bunch of conjecture to physical findings and you are objective? Brother you have a problem with objectivity. Look the word up and get back to me.
she told the examiner he held her down and showed here where and the examiner made a note that she had a red mark in that location. where's the conjecture in that? you and brother p.r. are on some kind of roll today. wow.
 
tnt said:
crackgina said:
Old man I never assumed the accuser was guilty. Show me the post. I said she has inconsistencies in HER own statements and texts. That is fact.


And The "inconsistencies" you refer to come from the motion (including JJ's statement,) not the charging document. I would hope they are inconsistent otherwise JJ should have plead guilty. And your motivation in pointing them out is.......... I certainly am hoping you are not at close to age 50 claiming to be fluent in "text speak" and resting your theory on interpretation of a foreign language....

The inconsistencies also come strictly from the charging document, e.g. I told him no but he forced me to have sex, but with a text immediately after of "I might have been raped." She's positive now she told him no and he understood, but that seems to contradict with her own statement immediately after the event.
 
tnt said:
And The "inconsistencies" you refer to come from the motion (including JJ's statement,) not the charging document. I would hope they are inconsistent otherwise JJ should have plead guilty. And your motivation in pointing them out is.......... I certainly am hoping you are not at close to age 50 claiming to be fluent in "text speak" and resting your theory on interpretation of a foreign language....
The inconsistencies in "the case" are between Jane Does original investigative interviews, affidavits she has made, and subsequent recorded interviews she had with JJ's attorneys.

And, as often happens with people describing a particular event that didn't happen, the allegations in each such statement of Jane Doe don't accord with other statements she has made. On the other hand, even as she has contradicted herself, she has made a number of such statements that are in accord with JJ's version of events.
 
br fan said:
The inconsistencies also come strictly from the charging document, e.g. I told him no but he forced me to have sex, but with a text immediately after of "I might have been raped." She's positive now she told him no and he understood, but that seems to contradict with her own statement immediately after the event.

She changed this later to "I didn't specifically tell him 'yes'".
 
tnt said:
crackgina said:
Old man I never assumed the accuser was guilty. Show me the post. I said she has inconsistencies in HER own statements and texts. That is fact.


And The "inconsistencies" you refer to come from the motion (including JJ's statement,) not the charging document. I would hope they are inconsistent otherwise JJ should have plead guilty. And your motivation in pointing them out is.......... I certainly am hoping you are not at close to age 50 claiming to be fluent in "text speak" and resting your theory on interpretation of a foreign language....

Texting from the accuser is clear and contradicts her statements. Its not a foreign language and anyone that thinks they can represent people without an understanding of social media in this day and age is wrong.
 
getgrizzy said:
crackgina said:
getgrizzy said:
crackgina said:
Way to read stuff into the physical report. Let's try: red mark consistent with the flush that comes over some liars. Jesus you are pushing your agenda.
haha, i only seem like i have an agenda to you because i'm being objective and you're (like many others) too emotionally attached to this situation.

this isn't a slam dunk case, but it favors j.j. and he'll probably win an acquittal. he may end up getting expelled anyway or beat out for the q.b. job if he isn't expelled. she seems to just want him out of town and there was talk of j.j. looking at transferring prior to the charges. if both parties are o.k. with that, then doesn't it seem like it would be in their best interests to work out a deal and not drag themselves through what appears to be a lengthy trial, which in the end isn't going to have convincing evidence for either of them.

You add a bunch of conjecture to physical findings and you are objective? Brother you have a problem with objectivity. Look the word up and get back to me.
she told the examiner he held her down and showed here where and the examiner made a note that she had a red mark in that location. where's the conjecture in that? you and brother p.r. are on some kind of roll today. wow.

That is HER story. What about HIS story that contradicts that? Try to synthesize both perspectives and you might understand "objectivity". Taking one sides position is NOT objective. The conjecture is that you assume her version to be the only truth in this matter. You are on a roll today sport.
 
images
 
Consensual sex can be rather rough also. There is nothing in her physical examination that cannot be explained by that (e.g.'s black eye, cuts, etc.).

Really the only thing thing this comes down to is whether JJ was aware that she REALLY didn't want to have sex. There is evidence to suggest that this is the case ("she said") and there is evidence to say that it is not the case ("he said"). The swaying factor in my opinion is her behavior. Yes she went for a rape exam but almost everything else she did and texted suggests otherwise. If the prosecution doesn't have damning evidence against JJ that we are not aware of then they face a significant hurdle in proving to a jury of the accused's peers that it was rape "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Sure, the prosecution will have their experts; the defense with have theirs. Each side will make their points which will mostly be negated by the other and it will still come back to this one question. Given that a guilty verdict will have a life-time impact on the convicted, a jury will want to be sure -- and if all of the significant evidence is on the table at this moment then I feel confident that JJ will walk.

But then again I thought OJ would be convicted so clearly the legal system can be a bit of a crap shoot -- that or I am simply an idiot.
 
Grisly Fan said:
Consensual sex can be rather rough also. There is nothing in her physical examination that cannot be explained by that (e.g.'s black eye, cuts, etc.).

Really the only thing thing this comes down to is whether JJ was aware that she REALLY didn't want to have sex. There is evidence to suggest that this is the case ("she said") and there is evidence to say that it is not the case ("he said"). The swaying factor in my opinion is her behavior. Yes she went for a rape exam but almost everything else she did and texted suggests otherwise. If the prosecution doesn't have damning evidence against JJ that we are not aware of then they face a significant hurdle in proving to a jury of the accused's peers that it was rape "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Sure, the prosecution will have their experts; the defense with have theirs. Each side will make their points which will mostly be negated by the other and it will still come back to this one question. Given that a guilty verdict will have a life-time impact on the convicted, a jury will want to be sure -- and if all of the significant evidence is on the table at this moment then I feel confident that JJ will walk.

But then again I thought OJ would be convicted so clearly the legal system can be a bit of a crap shoot -- that or I am simply an idiot.


+1
 
UMGriz75 said:
argh! said:
gawd, you are insufferable. we get it - you are all seeing, all knowing, and have this whole thing figured out due to your incredible ability to 'read between the lines', and conjure up meanings that support your bias. way to go!
Let me be just a little more insufferable.

The problem here, and it is very likely the reason that the Defense put up a Motion to Dismiss in a criminal case where it is ordinarily unusual. And, it was necessary in this case.

Firstly, Fred Van Valkenburg has a time bomb. Her name is Jane Doe. By her admissions, she is a psychologically damaged young women unable and unwilling to engage in normal boyfriend/girlfriend relationships in college "because of her relationship with JJ."

A relationship that she also acknowledges didn't actually exist.

But she's got some fantasies. She "knew" that someday they would have a relationship and would "have consensual sex." JJ, she notes, was a really nice guy. He would go out with her once in a while, but he was developing a relationship with Kelly. For some reason, she goes alone to the Forester's Ball, and is pretty well three sheets to the wind already. She sees JJ and Kelly dancing. She goes over to them, and separates JJ from Kelly, saying in front of witnesses that she'd "do him any time," and convinces him to dance with her. He's a nice guy, he does so. Kelly's likely standing over there wondering "what this is all about."

Jane Doe is really enjoying herself. Everyone is seeing her in her fantasy, as JJ's girlfriend in a very public place; the most public social event on the UM campus. He asks her to go the "Marriage booth," and they are standing in line. JJ sees Kelly across the gym floor, and realizes he's got a social problem brewing. He leaves Jane Doe standing there. Kelly likely has some words to say.

Everyone sees what happened. Jane is humiliated.

JJ feels terrible about the whole thing, but you know, this is all pretty normal college-age behavior. Relationships are being sorted out. So the next day, BECAUSE HE IS A NICE GUY, he texts her, hey let's do something.

Her admissions on what happens during that afternoon are positively bizarre, and not just because she offers different versions of it at different points ("he took off my shirt," "I took off my shirt"). She wants to watch a movie. Her favorite movie. About a college age girl who invents sexual fantasies involving herself.

Now, we are at the weird part. You strip your male companion after taking off your own clothes, and straddle him. You have what appears to be a fairly weird soft porn movie playing. Her favorite movie.

Now, at that point, it's her house, it's her bed, it's her idea, and it's her weird movie.

And, she's mad about last night.

She discloses during the investigation that she was abused at a younger age. She was diagnosed with PTSD. She suffers from depression and she has ideated suicide. Now, she is in the middle of a bizarre and public case in which she has demonstrated a pattern of behavior that suggests an obsession with Jordan Johnson. After a very public humiliation by Jordan, she gets him over to her house, sets up the soft porn movie and takes off her clothes, straddling JJ.

The next morning, she goes to get the rape kit, isn't really interested in fully cooperating, just wants to make sure she's got a "report" on file. Goes to a Superbowl party. Texts a friend a couple of days later sounding almost giddy. "It's all good." She's seems fully aware that a rape charge will hit JJ "like a ton of bricks."

Hmmm. Wonder why she thinks that?

Four weeks later, just so we are on the same page here, she writes JJ a letter that doesn't mention rape, it accuses him of "humiliating" her. That's the emotional driver here.

He doesn't respond. "Dammit, then I'm going to file for a TRO, that I am in fear of bodily harm," a claim completely inconsistent with everything she ever said about JJ, and for which in fact, there was no basis for the claim. It was clearly retaliatory for NOT contacting her or responding to her letter. She would "teach" him.

Now, Fred has this file on his desk. And I can hear Fred as he is reading it. "Oh sh....".

Jane Doe has pretty much fabricated a case, out of an unsuccessful fantasy relationship that she had been pursuing. The clue is found in her changing stories. It always is.

Fred knows there's a huge problem with the case. He's got DOJ sniffing around. He's under some public pressure. And that's not his main concern. His main concern is that the public tailwind around this case is driving to a very public conclusion that will likely not be favorable to a very fragile young women with a history of problems.

And I will tell you as a fact just from knowing Fred for 40 years, he is concerned about where this is going, and it has less to do with JJ than it does with a young woman for whom her fantasies got out of control and she has precipitated a very public spectacle of what can still be an unfolding tragedy.

She has already complained about a public humiliation, and that it was JJ's "fault." The "humiliation," in her own words, has very much driven her escalating behavior. And it may drive it farther. Fred knows that. He knows this case cannot go to trial.

And that conclusion has very little to do with Jordan Johnson.

Small, but important, point. She asked JJ to go to the marriage booth, not vice versa, according to the motion.
 
Grisly Fan said:
Consensual sex can be rather rough also. There is nothing in her physical examination that cannot be explained by that (e.g.'s black eye, cuts, etc.).

Really the only thing thing this comes down to is whether JJ was aware that she REALLY didn't want to have sex. There is evidence to suggest that this is the case ("she said") and there is evidence to say that it is not the case ("he said"). The swaying factor in my opinion is her behavior. Yes she went for a rape exam but almost everything else she did and texted suggests otherwise. If the prosecution doesn't have damning evidence against JJ that we are not aware of then they face a significant hurdle in proving to a jury of the accused's peers that it was rape "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Sure, the prosecution will have their experts; the defense with have theirs. Each side will make their points which will mostly be negated by the other and it will still come back to this one question. Given that a guilty verdict will have a life-time impact on the convicted, a jury will want to be sure -- and if all of the significant evidence is on the table at this moment then I feel confident that JJ will walk.

But then again I thought OJ would be convicted so clearly the legal system can be a bit of a crap shoot -- that or I am simply an idiot.

This post explains Pabst argument as to why the case should be dismissed.
 
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