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JJ Trial

To me, the most troubling part of yesterdays proceedings was the news that the MPD has changed its policy regarding sexual assault. The new policy, according to Fwen, "The policy reads, in part, "every sex crime investigation is to be initiated with the belief it is true until evidence demonstrates otherwise." This is chilling because the presumption of innocence is essential to the criminal process. The mere mention of the phrase presumed innocent is supposed to keep judges and juries focused on the ultimate issue at hand in a criminal case: whether the prosecution has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant committed the alleged acts. We the people of the United States have rejected the alternative to a presumption of innocence — a presumption of guilt — as being inquisitorial and contrary to the principles of a free society. The MPD policy now rejects one of the corner stones of due process.

From Wikipedia "The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty. Application of this principle is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, recognised in many nations. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If reasonable doubt remains, the accused is to be acquitted."

I do not believe it is the proper position of the Missoula Chief of Police to substantively alter such a fundamental right. I do not believe that any government agency or individual has the authority to make such a sweeping change to a basic fundamental right in the dark without any semblance of the light of day. I also think this goes towards what someone else posted here earlier, sorry i can't recall who said it exactly, something along the lines of the uprising of the anti-Griz Football faction. Of all the things I've read, heard, and seen from this trial, rejecting the fundamental right to the presumption of innocence angers me more than anything.
 
UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Why introduce the blanket if it hasn't even been tested? That was odd, and at least minor egg on the prosecution's face. The detective admitted that she didn't know what was on it, and didn't know who's it was. What if it had been tested and it was someone else's? The detective explained that the sex had been admitted, so testing wasn't needed, but then why introduce the blanket? I thought it was pretty funny how the defense pointed out the glitch.
It was odd; kind of a "show and tell" moment where the Prosecution needed to "show something."

Fortunately, it wasn't a glove.

But, the point about lack of testing is a good one: suppose "testing" had NOT confirmed that JJ was there, that it wasn't "the" blanket, OR, that multiple partners had been involved recently with Doe?

Without "testing" it becomes a useless prop; objectionable for lack of foundation, and Defense should have.

You are absolutely correct. The defense should have objected big time. What if she had sex with more than one partner after or before the JJ encounter? That blanket is irrelevant to the case without testing. Shame on the MPD. Very sloppy work and the prosecution should be embarrassed. This thing can't get over quickly enough. An embarrassment for law enforcement in general and this case will end up being studied extensively and used as training at the law enforcement academy. The section will be titled , "what not to do when Conducting a rape investigation".
 
The MPD policy is a PC standard that treats this "crime" differently than the rest, even though the reported incidence of false reports is known to be substantially higher; that is, the likelihood of actual guilt is lower than for most crimes. Taken to its unjustifiable logical conclusion, if the presumption for investigators -- charged with determining whether or not a crime was committed -- is that the accused is presumed guilty at the outset, then are they required to immediately arrest them, and does that impose different bail conditions?

Does that create additional liability for the police on the part of the wrongfully accused? That is, create additional risk, cost and litigation for the City?

Yes.

Is it smart?

No, there is no investigatory reason for it whatsoever except to placate a purely politicized view of specific crimes.
 
PTGrizzly said:
grizfan95 said:
garizzalies said:
PTGrizzly said:
IMO the most damning part was Alex admitting that he changed his story after meeting with Paoli.
i thought the most damning part of AB's testimony was the stuff about talking games about girls w/ JJ and telling JJ to get it done or whatever prior to leaving for the date.

If you don't think every 20 year old male says something like that jokingly you're naive past saving.

I'll agree with this for sure. I've said things like "go get her buddy" or "get it done" to my friends before they go on dates, and I don't think it's that big of a deal. Just how people talk these days. I definitely thought that was a point they brought up that meant nothing to the case at all.

True. And not said by Johnson. It's also a common football phrase. Let's get er done, or Get er done. For those from Butte, it's akin to Tap'er Light. It obviously doesn't mean to go tap a keg, or even to drink.
 
Copper Griz said:
UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Why introduce the blanket if it hasn't even been tested? That was odd, and at least minor egg on the prosecution's face. The detective admitted that she didn't know what was on it, and didn't know who's it was. What if it had been tested and it was someone else's? The detective explained that the sex had been admitted, so testing wasn't needed, but then why introduce the blanket? I thought it was pretty funny how the defense pointed out the glitch.
It was odd; kind of a "show and tell" moment where the Prosecution needed to "show something."

Fortunately, it wasn't a glove.

But, the point about lack of testing is a good one: suppose "testing" had NOT confirmed that JJ was there, that it wasn't "the" blanket, OR, that multiple partners had been involved recently with Doe?

Without "testing" it becomes a useless prop; objectionable for lack of foundation, and Defense should have.

You are absolutely correct. The defense should have objected big time. What if she had sex with more than one partner after or before the JJ encounter? That blanket is irrelevant to the case without testing. Shame on the MPD. Very sloppy work and the prosecution should be embarrassed. This thing can't get over quickly enough. An embarrassment for law enforcement in general and this case will end up being studied extensively and used as training at the law enforcement academy. The section will be titled , "what not to do when Conducting a rape investigation".

I don't agree that the defense should have objected. That might have looked like they were trying to hide something. As it played out, the defense put some egg on the prosecution's face.
 
PlayerRep said:
Copper Griz said:
UMGriz75 said:
PlayerRep said:
Why introduce the blanket if it hasn't even been tested? That was odd, and at least minor egg on the prosecution's face. The detective admitted that she didn't know what was on it, and didn't know who's it was. What if it had been tested and it was someone else's? The detective explained that the sex had been admitted, so testing wasn't needed, but then why introduce the blanket? I thought it was pretty funny how the defense pointed out the glitch.
It was odd; kind of a "show and tell" moment where the Prosecution needed to "show something."

Fortunately, it wasn't a glove.

But, the point about lack of testing is a good one: suppose "testing" had NOT confirmed that JJ was there, that it wasn't "the" blanket, OR, that multiple partners had been involved recently with Doe?

Without "testing" it becomes a useless prop; objectionable for lack of foundation, and Defense should have.

You are absolutely correct. The defense should have objected big time. What if she had sex with more than one partner after or before the JJ encounter? That blanket is irrelevant to the case without testing. Shame on the MPD. Very sloppy work and the prosecution should be embarrassed. This thing can't get over quickly enough. An embarrassment for law enforcement in general and this case will end up being studied extensively and used as training at the law enforcement academy. The section will be titled , "what not to do when Conducting a rape investigation".

I don't agree that the defense should have objected. That might have looked like they were trying to hide something. As it played out, the defense put some egg on the prosecution's face.

Interesting take PR. You may be correct. I think the defense could have accomplished both by stating why they were objecting - which really would have placed egg on the face of the prosecution. I did not see anything tweeted about the defense on cross examining the detective and asking her if the fluid was
A. semen (how about blood)
B. Beloned to JJ (even if it was JJ's, it only proves what they both already admitted - they had sex)
C. Belonged to another male she had sexual relations with(maybe the defense already knows this answer)
D. Belonged to one of her two male roommates (did they use her bed for sex?)
 
The best thing a plaintiff can do in a wrongful death trial of a child is to get their Teddy Bear into evidence.

It sits there, in the jury room, as a constant reminder of ... the child, and callous as this may sound, not the "facts of the case." It continues to speak for the child.

In Jury Research, this is called "creating a mood state."

The blanket is meaningless. And yet, what kind of mood state is created, for instance, when this "great big exhibit" is sitting there?

If it is covered with bunnies and flowers and bubbles, that creates a different mood state in the jury -- one of the permanent vulnerability of the owner -- than if it is covered with pirates, razor wire, motorcycles and tattoos -- a different effect.

Tangible personal items have a significant effect on people's deliberations about the "person." The equivalent in this case would be JJ's high school football that the team gave him at the end of his winning season, with all the signatures on it.
 
UMGriz75 said:
The blanket is....... is covered with...bubbles, that creates a different mood state in the jury -- one of the permanent vulnerability of the owner -- than if it is covered with pirates, razor wire, motorcycles and tattoos -- a different effect.
Ohhhh...... I thought those were glow-in- the-dark boobs all over it. My bad.
 
UMGriz75 said:
The best thing a plaintiff can do in a wrongful death trial of a child is to get their Teddy Bear into evidence.

It sits there, in the jury room, as a constant reminder of ... the child, and callous as this may sound, not the "facts of the case." It continues to speak for the child.

In Jury Research, this is called "creating a mood state."

The blanket is meaningless. And yet, what kind of mood state is created, for instance, when this "great big exhibit" is sitting there?

If it is covered with bunnies and flowers and bubbles, that creates a different mood state in the jury -- one of the permanent vulnerability of the owner -- than if it is covered with pirates, razor wire, motorcycles and tattoos -- a different effect.

Tangible personal items have a significant effect on people's deliberations about the "person." The equivalent in this case would be JJ's high school football that the team gave him at the end of his winning season, with all the signatures on it.

I'm not sure the ugliest blanket on the planet would turn me, but I'm a heartless bastard.
 
UMGriz75 said:
The best thing a plaintiff can do in a wrongful death trial of a child is to get their Teddy Bear into evidence.

It sits there, in the jury room, as a constant reminder of ... the child, and callous as this may sound, not the "facts of the case." It continues to speak for the child.

In Jury Research, this is called "creating a mood state."

The blanket is meaningless. And yet, what kind of mood state is created, for instance, when this "great big exhibit" is sitting there?

If it is covered with bunnies and flowers and bubbles, that creates a different mood state in the jury -- one of the permanent vulnerability of the owner -- than if it is covered with pirates, razor wire, motorcycles and tattoos -- a different effect.

Tangible personal items have a significant effect on people's deliberations about the "person." The equivalent in this case would be JJ's high school football that the team gave him at the end of his winning season, with all the signatures on it.
Under that theory the defense should enter into evidence the movie poster for "easy A".

1057702.jpg
 
UMGriz75 said:
The best thing a plaintiff can do in a wrongful death trial of a child is to get their Teddy Bear into evidence.

It sits there, in the jury room, as a constant reminder of ... the child, and callous as this may sound, not the "facts of the case." It continues to speak for the child.

In Jury Research, this is called "creating a mood state."

The blanket is meaningless. And yet, what kind of mood state is created, for instance, when this "great big exhibit" is sitting there?

If it is covered with bunnies and flowers and bubbles, that creates a different mood state in the jury -- one of the permanent vulnerability of the owner -- than if it is covered with pirates, razor wire, motorcycles and tattoos -- a different effect.

Tangible personal items have a significant effect on people's deliberations about the "person." The equivalent in this case would be JJ's high school football that the team gave him at the end of his winning season, with all the signatures on it.

Great inside info 75!
 
GrizBear said:
UMGriz75 said:
The best thing a plaintiff can do in a wrongful death trial of a child is to get their Teddy Bear into evidence.

It sits there, in the jury room, as a constant reminder of ... the child, and callous as this may sound, not the "facts of the case." It continues to speak for the child.

In Jury Research, this is called "creating a mood state."

The blanket is meaningless. And yet, what kind of mood state is created, for instance, when this "great big exhibit" is sitting there?

If it is covered with bunnies and flowers and bubbles, that creates a different mood state in the jury -- one of the permanent vulnerability of the owner -- than if it is covered with pirates, razor wire, motorcycles and tattoos -- a different effect.

Tangible personal items have a significant effect on people's deliberations about the "person." The equivalent in this case would be JJ's high school football that the team gave him at the end of his winning season, with all the signatures on it.
Under that theory the defense should enter into evidence the movie poster for "easy A".

1057702.jpg
Although I am an almost 50 year man, and will probably be called a perv because of this, that girl is hot. Is she the one from Zombieland?
 
JBS said:
Although I am an almost 50 year man, and will probably be called a perv because of this, that girl is hot. Is she the one from Zombieland?

Yes, and she was born in 1988, which put her at about 21 at time of filming. I know a guy that when he was 73 he married a 25 year old. Said it was better for him than viagra.
 
ordigger said:
JBS said:
Although I am an almost 50 year man, and will probably be called a perv because of this, that girl is hot. Is she the one from Zombieland?

Yes, and she was born in 1988, which put her at about 21 at time of filming. I know a guy that when he was 73 he married a 25 year old. Said it was better for him than viagra.
I dread the day I need viagra. I just don't know what I would do with a 4 hour boner. There isn't enough women that like me enough to handle it.
 
Screamin_Eagle174 said:
Can I get a summary?:lol:


1/3 think JJ is a pyschopath rapist...1/3 think she's a lying slut...1/3 think we should wait and see what happens...

arguements ensue, namecalling runs amuck....typical day in the life.

to that end....1/3 of the above are not the brightest, I'll let you decide which is which.
 
stubbins said:
Screamin_Eagle174 said:
Can I get a summary?:lol:


1/3 think JJ is a pyschopath rapist...1/3 think she's a lying slut...1/3 think we should wait and see what happens...

arguements ensue, namecalling runs amuck....typical day in the life.

to that end....2/3 of the above are not the brightest, I'll let you decide which is which.

Fixed it for ya.

;)
 
PTGrizzly said:
stubbins said:
Screamin_Eagle174 said:
Can I get a summary?:lol:


1/3 think JJ is a pyschopath rapist...1/3 think she's a lying slut...1/3 think we should wait and see what happens...

arguements ensue, namecalling runs amuck....typical day in the life.

to that end....2/3 of the above are not the brightest, I'll let you decide which is which.

Fixed it for ya.

;)


HA! Probably correct...but my post allows me to be extremely biased and still fall under the bright catergory.
 
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