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McDowell back in the portal

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CDAGRIZ said:
Also, I have a general question: CBB players can declare for the NBA Draft early and then change their minds before the deadline. Has there been CBB coach who said "no" to someone who withdraws his name and wants to come back (absent other issues)? Clearly, the player must have borderline NBA talent to even declare, right? So that's a pretty good thing to have back on the college team. What if an FCS football program treated it the same way (replacing NBA with FBS)? 🤷‍♂️
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I'm not saying that the Griz should go this route, but I think there is room in the space for a team to using moving up to the FBS as a recruiting pitch. "We have helped get WR, a QB, and two Punters to FBS schools and one 25% of those players got drafted into the NFL." There is an open space in recruiting based on that. It wouldn't be best for us at Montana, but for a school like, say, Eastern Washington to start pitching that they will actively develop you and help you get to the FBS might help them get some recruits they otherwise might not.


I say this to agree with you that there can and will be a lot of re-thinking about how kids are recruited and retained at this level. I don't think that the example I gave is best for Missoula, as we have far more recruiting tools in our belt, but to highly agree with you that there are going to be young coaches disrupting this industry with new pitches and strategies that meet this new moment and new reality of CFB.
 
MissoulaMarinerFan said:
Yeah, but even that gets tricky based on when the portal opens and when signing days happen. I would think at FCS level, there would even need to be extenuating circumstances to make it work. Say they wanted to bring him back. Could they? Probably no scholly's open. Would Clif be willing to walk on? If yes, NIL wouldn't help because Clif would be an everyday student. Would he be willing or able to pay his own way?

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out there are a truckload of more logistics to figure out even if both the staff and the player want to come back. Which is probably why for FCS for the most part, once you're in the portal, there isn't turning back around.
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Yep, totally agree. So, if you're an FCS staff finding itself in that situation, you'd have to budget for it. Tricky things for sure, but that's why they are DI FB coaches.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Yep, totally agree. So, if you're an FCS staff finding itself in that situation, you'd have to budget for it. Tricky things for sure, but that's why they are DI FB coaches.
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Yeah, but budget how? This level you need to use every scholarship you have - I'm sure they do something, but curious to see how it plays out in the future.
 
MissoulaMarinerFan said:
Yeah, but even that gets tricky based on when the portal opens and when signing days happen. I'd imagine the timing would have to be right for this as well (i.e goes into portal after signing day (so his scholarship is already "counted" and could potentially be given back).

I would think at FCS level, there would even need to be extenuating circumstances to make it work. Say they wanted to bring him back. Could they? Probably no scholly's open (depending on when the portal entry happened). Would Clif be willing to walk on? If yes, NIL wouldn't help because Clif would be an everyday student. Would he be willing or able to pay his own way?

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out there are a truckload of more logistics to figure out even if both the staff and the player want to come back. Which is probably why for FCS for the most part, once you're in the portal, there isn't turning back around.

I'm all for trying to find advantages on the edges - but I don't know due to the limited scholarships and funding that is typical for the FCS level there is a way. I'd be curious to know if there were a way to take an advantage - I just don't know where that would be (right now).
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You make tons of good points in here about logistical reality that underlies a lot of these decisions.

The one distinction I want to make is that if your premise on the NIL piece is that a player would be considered an everyday student, that would make it easier to pay him. Everyday students could always get paid, it was their status as an athlete that made them making money impossible based on their amateur athletic status. As far as I understand, NIL money COULD go to him if he was considered an athlete, but if he is not considered anyone in town could just pay for his tuition for the year just like I could theoretically offer to pay anyone's tuition for this year. I don't know all the intricacies, but it would appear to me that if you are saying he would be a walk on and every day student, that actually opens him up to more money.

It is the wild west right now with paying college kids. And I'm not saying I love it or hate it, I'm just saying that the rules of paying kids to play is just wildly open right now.
 
ElrodGrizzly said:
You make tons of good points in here about logistical reality that underlies a lot of these decisions.

The one distinction I want to make is that if your premise on the NIL piece is that a player would be considered an everyday student, that would make it easier to pay him. Everyday students could always get paid, it was their status as an athlete that made them making money impossible based on their amateur athletic status. As far as I understand, NIL money COULD go to him if he was considered an athlete, but if he is not considered anyone in town could just pay for his tuition for the year just like I could theoretically offer to pay anyone's tuition for this year. I don't know all the intricacies, but it would appear to me that if you are saying he would be a walk on and every day student, that actually opens him up to more money.

It is the wild west right now with paying college kids. And I'm not saying I love it or hate it, I'm just saying that the rules of paying kids to play is just wildly open right now.
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Bolded in your para above is a good point. I hadn't thought of that. All of that would still need to happen ahead of time though too. What a time we live in, hunh?
 
ElrodGrizzly said:
I'm not saying that the Griz should go this route, but I think there is room in the space for a team to using moving up to the FBS as a recruiting pitch. "We have helped get WR, a QB, and two Punters to FBS schools and one 25% of those players got drafted into the NFL." There is an open space in recruiting based on that. It wouldn't be best for us at Montana, but for a school like, say, Eastern Washington to start pitching that they will actively develop you and help you get to the FBS might help them get some recruits they otherwise might not.


I say this to agree with you that there can and will be a lot of re-thinking about how kids are recruited and retained at this level. I don't think that the example I gave is best for Missoula, as we have far more recruiting tools in our belt, but to highly agree with you that there are going to be young coaches disrupting this industry with new pitches and strategies that meet this new moment and new reality of CFB.
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Your first paragraph is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say for over a year. It's the JC model, and I predict the first FCS program that employs it will be the next up-and-comer at this level.
 
MissoulaMarinerFan said:
Yeah, but budget how? This level you need to use every scholarship you have - I'm sure they do something, but curious to see how it plays out in the future.
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Just spitballing here, but if the choice on the scholarship is between an established contributor and an 18yo HS student, maybe tell a certain borderline HS student to sit tight until we get our ducks in a row (i.e., determining whether the established guy is gone for good). HS dude doesn't have to sign on signing day, and if HS dude goes elsewhere instead of waiting, that's just the game we have to play now.

We've signed players well after the signing period and pulled scholarship offers in the past. I guess that would be a way to budget for it.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Your first paragraph is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say for over a year. It's the JC model, and I predict the first FCS program that employs it will be the next up-and-comer at this level.
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I agree with you. There are tons of kids out there that want to use the FCS as a stepping stone to get past whatever their issue was in getting to the bigger and better FBS schools, they just can't be honest about it because the coaches would hate it. Now they have a coach saying "Hey, give me 2 years. I won't burn your red shirt, I see you as a featured player in XYZ role, and I will commit to you that when you enter the portal after your sophomore year, I'll sing your praises to the media and to other coaches and the athletic department will put out a tweet marketing you to other schools, too. We will be on your team with helping YOU get to where YOU want to be, as long as you buy in while you are here."

Again, that is NOT the pitch I want the Griz to be giving, but I fully agree with you that something along those lines would be very attractive and would likely get talent to places like Easter Wash or PSU.
 
Our coaches have to be fully aware of the importance of good chemistry in the locker room. Let’s say you’re a Montana kid, ‘griz till I die’ mentality, performed at a superstar level last season and stuck with this team for next year. Go ahead and tell me there wouldn’t be a grudge or ugly feelings towards the fellow who lit off for greener pastures and then was accepted back on the team. As a coach, (I’m not) I don’t think I’d want to risk a situation like that. Gotta respect the guys who stuck it out and inspired teammates to do the same thing.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Also, I have a general question: CBB players can declare for the NBA Draft early and then change their minds before the deadline. Has there been CBB coach who said "no" to someone who withdraws his name and wants to come back (absent other issues)? Clearly, the player must have borderline NBA talent to even declare, right? So that's a pretty good thing to have back on the college team. What if an FCS football program treated it the same way (replacing NBA with FBS)? 🤷‍♂️
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Football players occasionally do that too. I assume coaches are generally okay with that. It may even be discussed in advance. Going to NFL or NBA is not the same as going to another team.

Lawyers often go into givernment and come back to their firms, as you know.
 
ElrodGrizzly said:
I agree with you. There are tons of kids out there that want to use the FCS as a stepping stone to get past whatever their issue was in getting to the bigger and better FBS schools, they just can't be honest about it because the coaches would hate it. Now they have a coach saying "Hey, give me 2 years. I won't burn your red shirt, I see you as a featured player in XYZ role, and I will commit to you that when you enter the portal after your sophomore year, I'll sing your praises to the media and to other coaches and the athletic department will put out a tweet marketing you to other schools, too. We will be on your team with helping YOU get to where YOU want to be, as long as you buy in while you are here."

Again, that is NOT the pitch I want the Griz to be giving, but I fully agree with you that something along those lines would be very attractive and would likely get talent to places like Easter Wash or PSU.
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No way this would work. Not good for team. Not good for team comradery. Not workable. Not going to happen, except as occasional exception.
 
montanaguy said:
Our coaches have to be fully aware of the importance of good chemistry in the locker room. Let’s say you’re a Montana kid, ‘griz till I die’ mentality, performed at a superstar level last season and stuck with this team for next year. Go ahead and tell me there wouldn’t be a grudge or ugly feelings towards the fellow who lit off for greener pastures and then was accepted back on the team. As a coach, (I’m not) I don’t think I’d want to risk a situation like that. Gotta respect the guys who stuck it out and inspired teammates to do the same thing.
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Yes. Presently we have a good and talented QB room. At least 2 of those quys are realistically thinking they could be starters. They went thru Winter conditioning and are now going thru Spring practice. How would they feel if Bobby brought in a guy at this late date, who quit on his team after last season, then quit on his next team.
 
mthoopsfan said:
Football players occasionally do that too. I assume coaches are generally okay with that. It may even be discussed in advance. Going to NFL or NBA is not the same as going to another team.

Lawyers often go into givernment and come back to their firms, as you know.
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Completely agree if we're talking about players going from Alabama to Auburn or something like that at the same level. In my view, that's different than seeing if you can jump up a level and potentially get paid more. We lament NIL making these guys "pro athletes", but I believe we also need to recognize its implications on players' decisions.

Here's what I mean: For simplicity, think of there being three levels of FB:

3. FCS;
2. FBS; and
1. NFL.

Ok, say a guy wants to leave level 2 early for level 1 because he could maybe play at a higher level and get paid more, but doesn't like what he's seeing, etc., so he wants to return to level 2. The level 2 coach would be generally OK with that, as you point out.

Now, say a guy wants to leave level 3 early for level 2 because he could play at a higher level and get paid more, but doesn't like what he's seeing, etc., so he wants to return to level 3. It seems very similar to me. This, of course, doesn't really apply to Clif's situation once he actually signed with Temple. At that point, I agree it's over. Just talking about players who might ask to come back before they sign elsewhere.
 
If we are just talking money, I don't know what the market was for Clif or any other specific players. I don't know what a guy could reasonably hope for. But payments to athletes are going up, not down. I've heard numbers said by coaches in press conferences, and I know what one kid was offered to move up from FCS to FBS in basketball (at MSU, not at UofM). That number was into the six figures by a significant margin.

As a Griz fan, I want kids to stay and I want the best kids to be incredibly committed to the program. Absolutely.

As a parent of a child, if they get a chance to move up a level, get out of college debt free, and start life with a good down payment on a house, I tell them to make the best decision to start their lives.

Speaking in generalities and not directly about Clif -- At this point, the conversation to move up and make more money isn't THAT different than the decision to turn pro, in my opinion.
 
AZGrizFan said:
Agreed. I prefer it the way it is, with players dropping DOWN and giving us their LAST two years (in most cases), not their FIRST two.
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I agree with you for us at Montana. I think a team like Portland State would do a lot better getting those better athletes for the first two than not at all.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Also, I have a general question: CBB players can declare for the NBA Draft early and then change their minds before the deadline. Has there been CBB coach who said "no" to someone who withdraws his name and wants to come back (absent other issues)? Clearly, the player must have borderline NBA talent to even declare, right? So that's a pretty good thing to have back on the college team. What if an FCS football program treated it the same way (replacing NBA with FBS)? 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
I guess we cross this bridge next time a Griz player declares for the draft, withdraws, and wants to return.
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Just spitballing here, but if the choice on the scholarship is between an established contributor and an 18yo HS student, maybe tell a certain borderline HS student to sit tight until we get our ducks in a row (i.e., determining whether the established guy is gone for good). HS dude doesn't have to sign on signing day, and if HS dude goes elsewhere instead of waiting, that's just the game we have to play now.

We've signed players well after the signing period and pulled scholarship offers in the past. I guess that would be a way to budget for it.
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Maybe, but I just don't see Cliff as a player to pull someone's scholarship so he can return for 1 year to compete with the guys on the roster, one of which came in to replace him after he jumped.
 
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