Beat ewoo GDT

[HelenaHandBasket]

That last quote (and other info in the article) makes it pretty clear that Dibler leans on his better, more experienced officials for the "big" conferences. Brown, for example, had refereed just 19 games by mid-season in 2018, and only three were in the Pac-12.

Officiating in the Big Sky suffers because we get the younger, inexperienced, and (generally) lower-rated officials. Sure these guy do get into a few major conference games, but most of the time ... not.

Neither article is a quick read, but they tell you a lot about what Montana, and the Big Sky in general, is up against.

I can tell you the crew for the EWU game was not young or inexperienced.

 

['68griz]

That last quote (and other info in the article) makes it pretty clear that Dibler leans on his better, more experienced officials for the "big" conferences. Brown, for example, had refereed just 19 games by mid-season in 2018, and only three were in the Pac-12.

Officiating in the Big Sky suffers because we get the younger, inexperienced, and (generally) lower-rated officials. Sure these guy do get into a few major conference games, but most of the time ... not.

Neither article is a quick read, but they tell you a lot about what Montana, and the Big Sky in general, is up against.

I can tell you the crew for the EWU game was not young or inexperienced.

But they still sucked. There was a foul called virtually every 15-30 seconds. And TWO double fouls! I have never in my life seen calls like that.

 

[EverettGriz]

I see you're attempting the never- ending - circular -argument - approach, by disagreeing with the the issue, but never really saying anything. Well played, sir. Well played.

That said, I'll make one final attempt: so you tell us what the issue is if it isn't the conference, and it isn't the officiating. 99% of posters not only on this board but every other bsc (#bsc) board agree: the officiating is terrible and vastly different and inferior to that of other conferences and officials in the tournament. So what causes that?

It is just so weird that those same officials work games in other conferences, yet the BSC is the only one with issues. It would make someone think there may be other factors.

Ah. So it IS a conference problem. Do you think it Is because the bsc (#bsc) refuses to hold their officials accountable, or is it because the league’s fat cats are just too busy counting their money to give a shit about the institutions and their fans?

 

[IdaGriz01]

I can tell you the crew for the EWU game was not young or inexperienced.

But they still sucked. There was a foul called virtually every 15-30 seconds. And TWO double fouls! I have never in my life seen calls like that.

The system didn't keep my innermost quote, which included:

Officiating in the Big Sky suffers because we get the younger, inexperienced, and (generally) lower-rated officials. [Emphasis added.]

If those officials were neither young nor inexperienced, but still sucked (which they did), well ... that leaves just one conclusion.

But in one way, it does fall on the Big Sky ... because they are the low man on the totem pole. If you read the second article I linked, you'll know that Dibler can be (has been) influenced by complaints about certain officials. But with its low standing in the BBall world, bitches from the BSC won't carry much weight. I would guess that the "give a s*** " ranking goes something like: Pac-12 (by far), West Coast (because of Gonzaga), Mountain West (maybe), and ... everybody else. Come to think of it, it's probably a toss-up between the BSC and the Big West for the bottom spot.

 

[EverettGriz]

Great post Ida.

I would contend the Big West gets better officiating because, with the obvious exception of HI, every place is easy to get to, with few worries about weather issues.

 

[IdaGriz01]

Great post Ida.

I would contend the Big West gets better officiating because, with the obvious exception of HI, every place is easy to get to, with few worries about weather issues.

You make a good point. The second article said he had to fill 153 referee spots for a week. I imagine there might be even more for some weeks. Of course, some individuals would most likely do more than one game if the travel worked out. And that, as you say, would be relatively simple for all but HI in the Big West. A good ref might be able to cover three games with minimal travel expense (which they pay themselves).

It would be interesting to know just how big a pool Dibler has to draw from, and how much leeway the refs have in accepting or turning down an assignment. Common sense says that highly-ranked refs are given more slack and young and/or low-ranked refs take what they can get.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

It is just so weird that those same officials work games in other conferences, yet the BSC is the only one with issues. It would make someone think there may be other factors.

Ah. So it IS a conference problem. Do you think it Is because the bsc (#bsc) refuses to hold their officials accountable, or is it because the league’s fat cats are just too busy counting their money to give a shit about the institutions and their fans?

A conference problem could also fall to the coaches/players/schools also.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

This is an interesting and valid discussion and one I ponder when I see an official who has frequently called Big Sky Conf games regularly calling Pac 12 games... as I noted of two officials who called the Montana-ISU game last week. And then asking, "Why can't they call Big Sky games like they call Pac 12 games???"

I re-checked the box scores (officials names are listed) and identified veteran crews for both of last week's games (Griz vs. ISU and Weber St). The irony is how dramatically different each game was called (42 fouls in the game vs ISU and 12 in the game vs Weber).... particularly how fractured, scrambled and halting (with numerous flops and on-floor scrums) the game vs ISU was compared to how well-officiated and enjoyable the game vs Weber State was. Certainly, coaching styles and player makeup can have an impact, but (as I noted in an earlier thread) starkly different in how the officials took control of the Griz--Wildcats game early before then allowing a pretty physical game with good, fast flow unfold for fans to truly enjoy. To me it still comes down to how officials work with each other on the floor AND to officials deciding to call a major NCAA policy from last summer's meetings: identify, call and enforce FLOPPING and foul FAKING on the part of the players. It certainly seems reasonable to me for the Big Sky to emphasize to all officiating crews the importance of enforcing that recent policy.

That said, no policy could have stopped the Eastern Washington team (at the direction of their coach, I assume) from repeatedly fouling Montana players (with intent) over the final 3:40 of the game, and resulting in Montana scoring 21 points in that time frame (because they're the best free throw shooting by % in the NCAA D1).

 

[LaJollaGriz]

This is an interesting and valid discussion and one I ponder when I see an official who has frequently called Big Sky Conf games regularly calling Pac 12 games... as I noted of two officials who called the Montana-ISU game last week. And then asking, "Why can't they call Big Sky games like they call Pac 12 games???"

I re-checked the box scores (officials names are listed) and identified veteran crews for both of last week's games (Griz vs. ISU and Weber St). The irony is how dramatically different each game was called (42 fouls in the game vs ISU and 12 in the game vs Weber).... particularly how fractured, scrambled and halting (with numerous flops and on-floor scrums) the game vs ISU was compared to how well-officiated and enjoyable the game vs Weber State was. Certainly, coaching styles and player makeup can have an impact, but (as I noted in an earlier thread) starkly different in how the officials took control of the Griz--Wildcats game early before then allowing a pretty physical game with good, fast flow unfold for fans to truly enjoy. To me it still comes down to how officials work with each other on the floor AND to officials deciding to call a major NCAA policy from last summer's meetings: identify, call and enforce FLOPPING and foul FAKING on the part of the players. It certainly seems reasonable to me for the Big Sky to emphasize to all officiating crews the importance of enforcing that recent policy.

That said, no policy could have stopped the Eastern Washington team (at the direction of their coach, I assume) from repeatedly fouling Montana players (with intent) over the final 3:40 of the game, and resulting in Montana scoring 21 points in that time frame (because they're the best free throw shooting by % in the NCAA D1).

Having watched many PAC 12 games, and also watched many Big Sky games, I think the difference in officials calls is because the PAC 12 teams make way fewer dumb fouls. Montana commits way to many silly reach-in and over-the-back fouls. I pull my hair out watching a Montana player get beat, then hip-check or reach-in to commit a foul, over and over again every game.

 

[IdaGriz01]

This is an interesting and valid discussion and one I ponder when I see an official who has frequently called Big Sky Conf games regularly calling Pac 12 games... as I noted of two officials who called the Montana-ISU game last week. And then asking, "Why can't they call Big Sky games like they call Pac 12 games???"
...

So … do the officials assigned to the Big Sky get more whistle happy (whether from the style of play or whatever). As a matter of fact, they do … although they’re not the worst case.

According to NCAA stats through Thursday’s games, Big Sky teams draw, on average, 18.2 fouls per game (FPG). Specific teams range from 13.9 (Weber) to 21.0 (Idaho). The Griz are fifth at 17.5.

If it’s any consolation, the WAC suffers the most, with an average of 18.6 fouls per game. Abilene Christian tops out at 21.7 FPG. (With teams all over Texas, and from Chicago to Riverside, California, scheduling officials has to be a nightmare.)

The Big West does much better than the BSC, with an average of 17.1 FPG. Like Idaho in the Sky, Bakersfield takes the booby prize at 21.0 FPG.

It happens that the Pac-12 is more or less at the low middle of the pack. They average 16.9 FPG, with USC the best at 14.1 and Washington State at 19.9 FPG.

Next in line is the West Coast Conference, with an average of 16.1 FPG. The two best are Santa Clara (14.7) and Gonzaga (14.8), while the most-penalized team is Loyola-Marymount at 17.5 FPG.

The Mountain West does best of all, but not by much. They average 16.0 FPG, with Colorado State best at 14.3 and New Mexico worst at 18.4 FPG.

These are not big differences. Still, they are based on almost half the season schedule and damp out the wild swings in fouls called that we’ve seen from game to game. With that much data, it probably means something that the Big Sky averages essentially two fouls per game more than the three lowest conferences.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

This is an interesting and valid discussion and one I ponder when I see an official who has frequently called Big Sky Conf games regularly calling Pac 12 games... as I noted of two officials who called the Montana-ISU game last week. And then asking, "Why can't they call Big Sky games like they call Pac 12 games???"
...

So … do the officials assigned to the Big Sky get more whistle happy (whether from the style of play or whatever). As a matter of fact, they do … although they’re not the worst case.

According to NCAA stats through Thursday’s games, Big Sky teams draw, on average, 18.2 fouls per game (FPG). Specific teams range from 13.9 (Weber) to 21.0 (Idaho). The Griz are fifth at 17.5.

If it’s any consolation, the WAC suffers the most, with an average of 18.6 fouls per game. Abilene Christian tops out at 21.7 FPG. (With teams all over Texas, and from Chicago to Riverside, California, scheduling officials has to be a nightmare.)

The Big West does much better than the BSC, with an average of 17.1 FPG. Like Idaho in the Sky, Bakersfield takes the booby prize at 21.0 FPG.

It happens that the Pac-12 is more or less at the low middle of the pack. They average 16.9 FPG, with USC the best at 14.1 and Washington State at 19.9 FPG.

Next in line is the West Coast Conference, with an average of 16.1 FPG. The two best are Santa Clara (14.7) and Gonzaga (14.8), while the most-penalized team is Loyola-Marymount at 17.5 FPG.

The Mountain West does best of all, but not by much. They average 16.0 FPG, with Colorado State best at 14.3 and New Mexico worst at 18.4 FPG.

These are not big differences. Still, they are based on almost half the season schedule and damp out the wild swings in fouls called that we’ve seen from game to game. With that much data, it probably means something that the Big Sky averages essentially two fouls per game more than the three lowest conferences.

Thanks for this IdaGriz01. Good research providing an interesting comparison of conferences.