"Want to know why America is losing its edge? Look around campus." By Bodnar

[CDAGRIZ]

Yes, Hoops, but those kids were always going to go to college, whether it was in 1980 or 2020. The debt issue being discussed is about the kids on the margin who may not have gone to college 40 years ago, but went anyway because they were pushed into it. A terminal degree in art history from Central Arkansas State isn’t exactly a great investment.

Also, fudge Cravath. Those nerds, haha.

Yes, I understand, but the discussion Bodnar and I am having is not that one. I've never been around anyone who was pushed to go to college but shouldn't have gone, so I don't know that area firsthand. I never played that game.

Anthony Johnstone, the UM law professor recently elevated to be a 9th Circuit judge, worked at Cravath for several years.

I hear ya. Just messin’ around with the Cravath comment.

 

[SoldierGriz]

Believe it or not, there was a time when states valued and invested in higher education…when state support was enough that tuition at public schools was “affordable” for MOST families. Those were the days!

Most of the figures I see about costs of college seem to focus on the actual tuition and books costs but not the daily living, like rent, food, clothing, booze and drugs...College itself is a good deal, for the most part, but when mom and dad aren't paying for it, things get dicey and you resort to military as a fall back plan b. My brother paid his own way then ROTC picked up his tab and he became a war hero but his kids went to good schools and did it their way. College is a bargain. It is not a free ticket to prosperity. some of us got lucky and took advantage of our breaks, others prefer to whine.

Or, service in our Armed Forces as Plan A. Your brother was smart...

 

[3-7-77]

Back in my post-high school days, they had a thing called The Draft. You had a choice, go to work, make a living, take a chance on getting drafted with all its benefits....or go to college get a 2-S deferment and live the life of a college student. They were shipping about 500 aluminum coffins home each week, at the time. After carefully considering my options, I chose college. So, blame it on the Baby Boomers who turned on, tuned in, and dropped out. They then raised a generation of worthless refuse, who then raised a generation of uber refuse. Just connect the dots. Rome didn't fall in a day.
Oh, and I did burn my draft card. Well, I was 35 at the time, and since the draft only applied to those under 35...

 

[Dillon]

Back in my post-high school days, they had a thing called The Draft. You had a choice, go to work, make a living, take a chance on getting drafted with all its benefits....or go to college get a 2-S deferment and live the life of a college student. They were shipping about 500 aluminum coffins home each week, at the time. After carefully considering my options, I chose college. So, blame it on the Baby Boomers who turned on, tuned in, and dropped out. They then raised a generation of worthless refuse, who then raised a generation of uber refuse. Just connect the dots. Rome didn't fall in a day.
Oh, and I did burn my draft card. Well, I was 35 at the time, and since the draft only applied to those under 35...

Reality folks - My draft # was 256! Luck of the Draft! :roll: I had never seen my Mom so Happy in all her life!

 

[UncleRico]

Most of the figures I see about costs of college seem to focus on the actual tuition and books costs but not the daily living, like rent, food, clothing, booze and drugs...College itself is a good deal, for the most part, but when mom and dad aren't paying for it, things get dicey and you resort to military as a fall back plan b. My brother paid his own way then ROTC picked up his tab and he became a war hero but his kids went to good schools and did it their way. College is a bargain. It is not a free ticket to prosperity. some of us got lucky and took advantage of our breaks, others prefer to whine.

Or, service in our Armed Forces as Plan A. Your brother was smart...

I used VEAP benefits after serving in the USAF. That program was around from mid 70s to mid 80s. When I went back to school I used those benefits and bartended 25-30 hours a week. I also took classes during my enlistment for free. Had a few other veteran related scholarships. I had no debt after graduating. But then I got my first teaching job in small town Montana and made significantly less than when I was going to school! I worry about teachers and other middle class occupations that require a degree but the pay doesn't necessarily cover the debt that they may accumulate to get that degree. It is a factor in the teacher shortage across the nation for sure.

 

[citygriz]

"But going to a prestigious college or university appears to pay off. The five colleges with the highest-paid former students all have median incomes above $100,000 [after 5 years].

I have two degrees: B.A. from the University of Montana, and a graduate degree from an Ivy League School. Two dominant thoughts.

First, I got a top-notch first-rate education in Missoula. If you're in state and can afford the tuition, go! It's a bargain. You'll not regret it. I was terrified going to an Ivy school but my Montana education served me well. I needn't have worried.

But second, the true value of a prestige degree is in the people you'll meet. The top 10% of students at Montana could go to any school in the country and be in the top 10%, but after that, the quality drops off rapidly. The friends you make at the prestige school will influence your life during your student days and form a network of influence exceeding that of a state school for the rest of your life.

As Willie Sutton said, "I rob banks because that's where the money is."

 

[3-7-77]

Reality folks - My draft # was 256! Luck of the Draft! :roll: I had never seen my Mom so Happy in all her life!

During the Tet Offensive in '68, I recall watching the Huntley-Brinkley Report and film of goings-on over there. My mom had this ghastly look on her face. She just looked at me and said, "You're going to college." I was outside the studio of KGLT(yes, Bozeman State)when they finally called my birthdate. Heart pounding, the draft number came up at #88. Later on, I discovered that the drawing was for those a year older that I was. That year, after transferring to UM, my number was in the 180-190s. The projected need was for up to 135. Phew! No Gunny Sergeant Hartman, no boot camp, no Vietnam. I've never been able to watch the Powerball drawings without thinking of this visual. Kinda get a queasy feeling in my stomach, ya know. :?

 

[horribilisfan8184]

Two of my three sons attended college. The youngest is an electrician and is making more money than his older brothers. I'm not sure the price is worth it.

Congratulations on the success of your children, DBM.

And it is certainly true that this can happen, particularly with great career choices like an electrician. And it's often the case early in careers; non-college students have a 4-5 year head start on earnings.

But over the long term, a college education is still one of the best investments one can make. Over a lifetime, the average college graduate will earn $1.2 million more than a high school graduate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2021/10/11/new-study-college-degree-carries-big-earnings-premium-but-other-factors-matter-too/?sh=3a65832b35cd#:~:text=Here%20are%20the%20median%20lifetime%20earnings%20of%20full-time,million%2C%20equal%20to%20%24100%2C000%20per%20year%20More%20items

Not to mention Biden wants him to pay back his college educated sibling's student loans.

 

[mthoopsfan]

"New data from College Scorecard shows how much the choice of a major can affect salaries. For U-Md. graduates in computer and information sciences who received federal financial aid, the figures show the median salary four years after earning a bachelor’s degree topped $116,000. The median for history graduates was about $53,000, and for English graduates it was about $47,700. Those figures echo findings at large public schools including Virginia Tech and Rutgers University." Source: WaPost.

 

[mthoopsfan]

"Yes, a College Degree Is Still Worth It

College graduates continue to command higher wages, but to combat falling enrollment, schools need to emphasize skills over credentials"

"A study we recently completed using data from Lightcast, a labor-market analytics firm, found that the four-year degree is still a valuable commodity, delivering an immediate 25% wage premium within a year of graduation—a difference that held steady over the 12-year period we studied. What’s more, we found that having a degree makes it easier for graduates to recover from early career struggles, allowing those who are “underemployed” to move up more easily into jobs where more of their co-workers have a degree.

In the last year and a half, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Utah have stopped requiring a four-year degree for most jobs in their state governments. The private sector has also moved toward skill-based hiring, with Google, Apple, IBM, Delta and General Motors, among others, dropping the four-year degree as a prerequisite for many positions. Even the federal government is urging its agencies to fill vacancies based on job-seekers’ skills rather than on their college credentials.

According to Gallup, 10 years ago, 74% of 18-29 year olds said that it was very important to get a degree. Today, only 41% agree. Young adults are getting mixed messages about what kind of education they need after high school—and whether they need more training at all.

The result is that undergraduate enrollment in the U.S. has fallen each year since it peaked in 2010-11, with an especially sharp drop in the first full year of the pandemic. Nationwide, fewer high-school seniors are choosing to enroll in college immediately after graduation. In 2022, only 62% of high school graduates went immediately to college. In some states, not even half of high school graduates are pursuing higher education.

The economic value of a bachelor’s degree has typically depended on the prestige of the college and the market demand for certain majors. While that generally remains true, we also found that a third ingredient is critical to the ultimate payoff: the specific skills students leave college with.

While colleges like to stuff the bachelor’s degree with course requirements, sometimes just one skill delivers big value. For instance, a public administration major who also has investment skills can see their wage premium rise by nearly a third, while a liberal-arts major who is knowledgeable about strategic planning gets a 20% boost.

Some of the most valuable skills are those that are just emerging in a particular field but are still relatively scarce. Knowing SQL, a database language, delivers an 11% wage premium for a natural resources major (where SQL is a relatively rare skill) but only a 4% return for a math major (where SQL is relatively common). Foundational skills—the bedrock of a liberal arts education—sometimes pay off even more than technical capabilities. Business majors get a greater wage boost from skills in negotiation and influencing others than from studying accounting.”

Source: Wall St. Journal.

 

[uptopgriz]

"Yes, a College Degree Is Still Worth It

College graduates continue to command higher wages, but to combat falling enrollment, schools need to emphasize skills over credentials"

"A study we recently completed using data from Lightcast, a labor-market analytics firm, found that the four-year degree is still a valuable commodity, delivering an immediate 25% wage premium within a year of graduation—a difference that held steady over the 12-year period we studied. What’s more, we found that having a degree makes it easier for graduates to recover from early career struggles, allowing those who are “underemployed” to move up more easily into jobs where more of their co-workers have a degree.

In the last year and a half, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Utah have stopped requiring a four-year degree for most jobs in their state governments. The private sector has also moved toward skill-based hiring, with Google, Apple, IBM, Delta and General Motors, among others, dropping the four-year degree as a prerequisite for many positions. Even the federal government is urging its agencies to fill vacancies based on job-seekers’ skills rather than on their college credentials.

According to Gallup, 10 years ago, 74% of 18-29 year olds said that it was very important to get a degree. Today, only 41% agree. Young adults are getting mixed messages about what kind of education they need after high school—and whether they need more training at all.

The result is that undergraduate enrollment in the U.S. has fallen each year since it peaked in 2010-11, with an especially sharp drop in the first full year of the pandemic. Nationwide, fewer high-school seniors are choosing to enroll in college immediately after graduation. In 2022, only 62% of high school graduates went immediately to college. In some states, not even half of high school graduates are pursuing higher education.

The economic value of a bachelor’s degree has typically depended on the prestige of the college and the market demand for certain majors. While that generally remains true, we also found that a third ingredient is critical to the ultimate payoff: the specific skills students leave college with.

While colleges like to stuff the bachelor’s degree with course requirements, sometimes just one skill delivers big value. For instance, a public administration major who also has investment skills can see their wage premium rise by nearly a third, while a liberal-arts major who is knowledgeable about strategic planning gets a 20% boost.

Some of the most valuable skills are those that are just emerging in a particular field but are still relatively scarce. Knowing SQL, a database language, delivers an 11% wage premium for a natural resources major (where SQL is a relatively rare skill) but only a 4% return for a math major (where SQL is relatively common). Foundational skills—the bedrock of a liberal arts education—sometimes pay off even more than technical capabilities. Business majors get a greater wage boost from skills in negotiation and influencing others than from studying accounting.”

Source: Wall St. Journal.

Higher-ed around the country are adapting and offering micro-credentials, like getting an analytics certificate. It will interesting to see if the MUS jumps on board and starts looking for ways to connect people to these types of certificates. The MUS is way behind with online education programs compared to Universites nationally. Western Govenors University is gaining a strong foothold in Montana and is significantly taking students from the MUS.

 

[mthoopsfan]

"Yes, a College Degree Is Still Worth It

College graduates continue to command higher wages, but to combat falling enrollment, schools need to emphasize skills over credentials"

"A study we recently completed using data from Lightcast, a labor-market analytics firm, found that the four-year degree is still a valuable commodity, delivering an immediate 25% wage premium within a year of graduation—a difference that held steady over the 12-year period we studied. What’s more, we found that having a degree makes it easier for graduates to recover from early career struggles, allowing those who are “underemployed” to move up more easily into jobs where more of their co-workers have a degree.

In the last year and a half, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Utah have stopped requiring a four-year degree for most jobs in their state governments. The private sector has also moved toward skill-based hiring, with Google, Apple, IBM, Delta and General Motors, among others, dropping the four-year degree as a prerequisite for many positions. Even the federal government is urging its agencies to fill vacancies based on job-seekers’ skills rather than on their college credentials.

According to Gallup, 10 years ago, 74% of 18-29 year olds said that it was very important to get a degree. Today, only 41% agree. Young adults are getting mixed messages about what kind of education they need after high school—and whether they need more training at all.

The result is that undergraduate enrollment in the U.S. has fallen each year since it peaked in 2010-11, with an especially sharp drop in the first full year of the pandemic. Nationwide, fewer high-school seniors are choosing to enroll in college immediately after graduation. In 2022, only 62% of high school graduates went immediately to college. In some states, not even half of high school graduates are pursuing higher education.

The economic value of a bachelor’s degree has typically depended on the prestige of the college and the market demand for certain majors. While that generally remains true, we also found that a third ingredient is critical to the ultimate payoff: the specific skills students leave college with.

While colleges like to stuff the bachelor’s degree with course requirements, sometimes just one skill delivers big value. For instance, a public administration major who also has investment skills can see their wage premium rise by nearly a third, while a liberal-arts major who is knowledgeable about strategic planning gets a 20% boost.

Some of the most valuable skills are those that are just emerging in a particular field but are still relatively scarce. Knowing SQL, a database language, delivers an 11% wage premium for a natural resources major (where SQL is a relatively rare skill) but only a 4% return for a math major (where SQL is relatively common). Foundational skills—the bedrock of a liberal arts education—sometimes pay off even more than technical capabilities. Business majors get a greater wage boost from skills in negotiation and influencing others than from studying accounting.”

Source: Wall St. Journal.

Higher-ed around the country are adapting and offering micro-credentials, like getting an analytics certificate. It will interesting to see if the MUS jumps on board and starts looking for ways to connect people to these types of certificates. The MUS is way behind with online education programs compared to Universites nationally. Western Govenors University is gaining a strong foothold in Montana and is significantly taking students from the MUS.

Montana probably has some bad profs too. Just into DEI and woke.

 

[GrizLA]

Most of the figures I see about costs of college seem to focus on the actual tuition and books costs but not the daily living, like rent, food, clothing, booze and drugs...College itself is a good deal, for the most part, but when mom and dad aren't paying for it, things get dicey and you resort to military as a fall back plan b. My brother paid his own way then ROTC picked up his tab and he became a war hero but his kids went to good schools and did it their way. College is a bargain. It is not a free ticket to prosperity. some of us got lucky and took advantage of our breaks, others prefer to whine.

Or, service in our Armed Forces as Plan A. Your brother was smart...

It was never Plan A...we were war orphans and had options. He took his. I loathe the military. He has succeeded and is well known. He left the army as a captain about to become colonel and has numerous medals but he hides them. We both worked hard to get through school. I guess, we were lucky in knowing that there was a second choice. But, my decision was made by me when I sat by my father's gravesite in the Punchbowl.But, to get to the point. Instead of pointing fingers at the state for the cost of college, point fingers at the apartments and landowners in Missoula and Bozeman that charge ever increasing rents for students, and the corporations that have raised the prices of food.

 

[thirdandlong]

Or, service in our Armed Forces as Plan A. Your brother was smart...

It was never Plan A...we were war orphans and had options. He took his. I loathe the military. He has succeeded and is well known. He left the army as a captain about to become colonel and has numerous medals but he hides them. We both worked hard to get through school. I guess, we were lucky in knowing that there was a second choice. But, my decision was made by me when I sat by my father's gravesite in the Punchbowl.But, to get to the point. Instead of pointing fingers at the state for the cost of college, point fingers at the apartments and landowners in Missoula and Bozeman that charge ever increasing rents for students, and the corporations that have raised the prices of food.

Raging socialist rant. The escalating rents in Missoula and Bozeman are primarily due to Californians coming to Montana like a plague of locusts, driving up rent. And we all know that Los Angeles has really low rents, huh? They call it Bozangeles for a reason.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Or, service in our Armed Forces as Plan A. Your brother was smart...

It was never Plan A...we were war orphans and had options. He took his. I loathe the military. He has succeeded and is well known. He left the army as a captain about to become colonel and has numerous medals but he hides them. We both worked hard to get through school. I guess, we were lucky in knowing that there was a second choice. But, my decision was made by me when I sat by my father's gravesite in the Punchbowl.But, to get to the point. Instead of pointing fingers at the state for the cost of college, point fingers at the apartments and landowners in Missoula and Bozeman that charge ever increasing rents for students, and the corporations that have raised the prices of food.

A captain doesn’t become a colonel. A captain becomes a major, who becomes a LT Col., who THEN becomes a colonel.

And God bless your father for making the ultimate sacrifice.

 

[mthoopsfan]

My view is that pointing fingers isn't going to do any good and is for losers. Either get to work fixing/changing what you think is wrong, or work harder and smarter to make more money. If people set their sights higher and work hard, it is highly likely that they will be successful in making a good living. It's really not that hard, with the right preparation and motivation.

 

[SoldierGriz]

Or, service in our Armed Forces as Plan A. Your brother was smart...

It was never Plan A...we were war orphans and had options. He took his. I loathe the military. He has succeeded and is well known. He left the army as a captain about to become colonel and has numerous medals but he hides them. We both worked hard to get through school. I guess, we were lucky in knowing that there was a second choice. But, my decision was made by me when I sat by my father's gravesite in the Punchbowl.But, to get to the point. Instead of pointing fingers at the state for the cost of college, point fingers at the apartments and landowners in Missoula and Bozeman that charge ever increasing rents for students, and the corporations that have raised the prices of food.

There are 2 ranks between Captain and Colonel in the Army you loathe. So, no he was not a captain about to become a colonel.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

My view is that pointing fingers isn't going to do any good and is for losers.

This is all your fault!

Edit: Sorry, I’m just in an oddly playful mood after our 8U softball girls smoked a much bigger Torrance team today.

 

[GrizLA]

It was never Plan A...we were war orphans and had options. He took his. I loathe the military. He has succeeded and is well known. He left the army as a captain about to become colonel and has numerous medals but he hides them. We both worked hard to get through school. I guess, we were lucky in knowing that there was a second choice. But, my decision was made by me when I sat by my father's gravesite in the Punchbowl.But, to get to the point. Instead of pointing fingers at the state for the cost of college, point fingers at the apartments and landowners in Missoula and Bozeman that charge ever increasing rents for students, and the corporations that have raised the prices of food.

There are 2 ranks between Captain and Colonel in the Army you loathe. So, no he was not a captain about to become a colonel.

It's all the same to me. but, back on the subject, deduct rent, food, clothing, rec from the costs and college is a very good deal in returns. If your ultimate goal is money, that is easy to acquire with hard work and ability to see a break and use it, but for a history or English or art major, maybe the cost is an intangible thing and happiness and satisfaction count more than cash.

 

[AZGrizFan]

There are 2 ranks between Captain and Colonel in the Army you loathe. So, no he was not a captain about to become a colonel.

It's all the same to me. but, back on the subject, deduct rent, food, clothing, rec from the costs and college is a very good deal in returns. If your ultimate goal is money, that is easy to acquire with hard work and ability to see a break and use it, but for a history or English or art major, maybe the cost is an intangible thing and happiness and satisfaction count more than cash.

Agreed on a number of fronts. My kids’ college (outside of living expenses) cost about $40,000 each. Then again, they got useful degrees that can help them get where they want to be in life. I wouldn’t have agreed to spend $40,000 on any number of degrees…