What Came 1st, The Snap, or the Timeout?

[Sam A. Blitz]

There is no rule against a coach leaving the coaches box to call a timeout. There is a rule against them leaving that area to argue a call. As much as it hurts, the entirety of the situation was legal, calculated, and well executed by Choate. If Hauck had done the same, you would be praising him, and rightfully so.

 

[PlayerRep]

I think it’s logical to say it’s when the TO was called not when the whistle is blown. Take the timeouts before delay of game. There are usually flags littering the field when they grant a TO. I agree that some of the officiating has been atrocious, but I would hope a referee can tell if a TO was yelled at him before a play was snapped.

This 100%. What alot of you fail to realize is it's when the coach calls timeout. Not when the whistle gets blown. Watch a ref call a timeout on the line. He will start running out as he's putting his whistle in his mouth. As long as the coach calls the timeout prior to the ball being snapped is all that matters.

How about this one. There was a penalty for the griz having 12 men on the field. Flags flew. But.....timeout was called at the same time as what you're arguing about. So you were helped by your coaches doing the exact same thing.

1. Where is the rule that says when a TO is called? Meaning where is the support for your above statement?

2. It is specifically in the rules that a coach/team can call a TO to say an illegal substitution penalty. In the situation you mentioned, the ball was not close to being snapped.

A team has 3 seconds for the extra player(s) to leave the field after the huddle or lining up.

A TO trumps that rule. The NFL adopted it first, and then the NCAA followed. That's exactly what the Griz did. You can trade a TO to avoid that penalty.

 

[PlayerRep]

There is no rule against a coach leaving the coaches box to call a timeout. There is a rule against them leaving that area to argue a call. As much as it hurts, the entirety of the situation was legal, calculated, and well executed by Choate. If Hauck had done the same, you would be praising him, and rightfully so.

You are missing the point. See below.

There appears to be no rule that allows a coach to call a TO when he is not in the coaching box or the player area, or "in the vicinity". I took this from the 2017 rule book.

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

That's the rule. Looks like a coach doesn't get to call a TO from anywhere he wants to be.

There is also no rule that allows a TO to be called after the snap. My guess is that Choate waited too long, and the ref panicked and gave him the call. That's why it was so late. Just a hunch.

No one is criticizing Choate. Criticizing the refs.

 

[mtgrizrule]

There is no rule against a coach leaving the coaches box to call a timeout. There is a rule against them leaving that area to argue a call. As much as it hurts, the entirety of the situation was legal, calculated, and well executed by Choate. If Hauck had done the same, you would be praising him, and rightfully so.

You are missing the point. See below.

There appears to be no rule that allows a coach to call a TO when he is not in the coaching box or the player area, or "in the vicinity". I took this from the 2017 rule book.

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

That's the rule. Looks like a coach doesn't get to call a TO from anywhere he wants to be.

There is also no rule that allows a TO to be called after the snap. My guess is that Choate waited too long, and the ref panicked and gave him the call. That's why it was so late. Just a hunch.

No one is criticizing Choate. Criticizing the refs.

PR, those are what I am questioning. A few years ago, I was watching a college game (cannot remember the teams playing). A situation like this happened. The commentator mentioned something very similar to what you just posted. I didn't even think of that game, until you posted this. I also remember it being added, that a coach should keep in mind that a referee may not be able to hear, acknowledge, or communicate timeout intentions as soon as a coach requests it. He said, a loud crowd can be part of making things more difficult to have a timeout administered in a timely fashion. I really do wish we could know for sure with official rules from the NCAA rule book.

 

[Sam A. Blitz]

There is no rule against a coach leaving the coaches box to call a timeout. There is a rule against them leaving that area to argue a call. As much as it hurts, the entirety of the situation was legal, calculated, and well executed by Choate. If Hauck had done the same, you would be praising him, and rightfully so.

You are missing the point. See below.

There appears to be no rule that allows a coach to call a TO when he is not in the coaching box or the player area, or "in the vicinity". I took this from the 2017 rule book.

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

That's the rule. Looks like a coach doesn't get to call a TO from anywhere he wants to be.

There is also no rule that allows a TO to be called after the snap. My guess is that Choate waited too long, and the ref panicked and gave him the call. That's why it was so late. Just a hunch.

No one is criticizing Choate. Criticizing the refs.

Define vicinity. I saw Choate talk to the line judge before the play. My seats were a few rows up on the 15 yard line on the West side, so had a good view of it. It appeared he told him that he was going to call a TO right before the snap. The LJ didn't panick. He was ready for it to be called right before the snap, which it was. The whistle came after the snap, the TO was before. The only thing you can be critical of in that scenario is the timing of the whistle from the LJ. That doesn't dictate anything though.

 

[PlayerRep]

There is no rule against a coach leaving the coaches box to call a timeout. There is a rule against them leaving that area to argue a call. As much as it hurts, the entirety of the situation was legal, calculated, and well executed by Choate. If Hauck had done the same, you would be praising him, and rightfully so.

You are missing the point. See below.

There appears to be no rule that allows a coach to call a TO when he is not in the coaching box or the player area, or "in the vicinity". I took this from the 2017 rule book.

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

That's the rule. Looks like a coach doesn't get to call a TO from anywhere he wants to be.

There is also no rule that allows a TO to be called after the snap. My guess is that Choate waited too long, and the ref panicked and gave him the call. That's why it was so late. Just a hunch.

No one is criticizing Choate. Criticizing the refs.

Define vicinity. I saw Choate talk to the line judge before the play. My seats were a few rows up on the 15 yard line on the West side, so had a good view of it. It appeared he told him that he was going to call a TO right before the snap. The LJ didn't panick. He was ready for it to be called right before the snap, which it was. The whistle came after the snap, the TO was before. The only thing you can be critical of in that scenario is the timing of the whistle from the LJ. That doesn't dictate anything though.

15 yard line is out of the vicinity, in my view. Where, exactly, was Choate standing when the TO was called? How close was Choate to the player area or coaching box when he called the TO? If you were right there, I assume know.

How do you know it was called before the snap? What's your evidence of that? Did you hear Choate? Did Choate signal with his hands? if so, how could the ref see Choate and see whether the ball was snapped?

Why were you watching Choate and the ref when the TO was called, instead of the upcoming play, perhaps the most important play of the season. Seems odd that you weren't watching the upcoming play.

What's your support for saying the timing of the whistle doesn't matter? Just curious. Or, did you just make that up?

 

[CatzWillRise]

The timing of the whistle does not matter. What if a coach called timeout 2 seconds before the snap but the ref had trouble blowing his whistle?

What would you all be saying if instead of scoring a TD the Griz threw a pick six?

 

[mtgrizrule]

Let's see what we can make of this. https://www.ruletool.info/ncaa-rule-3-periods-time-factors-and-substitutions/3/

So far, this is the closest thing I have found, but I'm confused as to if it includes timeout requests, or not.

Snap Supercedes Referee’s Signal. Whenever one or more incidents that cause the game clock to be started on the referee’s signal (Rule 3-3-2-e) occur in conjunction with any that cause it to be started on the snap (Rules 3-3-2-c and 3-3-2-d), it shall be started on the snap. (Exception: Rule 3-4-4 (10-second runoff) supersedes this rule. (A.R. 3-3-2-VIII and -IX))

 

[mtgrizrule]

PR, I found what you did, too.

ARTICLE 4. Charged Team Timeouts

When timeouts are not exhausted, an official shall allow a charged team timeout when requested by any player or head coach when the ball is dead.

Each team is entitled to three charged team timeouts during each half.

After the ball is declared dead and before the snap, a legal substitute may request a timeout if he is between the nine-yard marks. (A.R. 3-3-4:I)

A player who participated during the previous down may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the snap without being between the nine-yard marks. (A.R. 3-3-4:I)

A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap.

A player, incoming substitute or head coach may request a head coach’s conference with the referee if the coach believes a rule has been enforced improperly. If the rule enforcement is not changed, the coach’s team will be charged a timeout, or a delay penalty if all timeouts have been used.

Only the referee may stop the clock for a head coach’s conference.

A request for a head coach’s conference or challenge must be made before the ball is snapped or free-kicked for the next play and before the end of the second or fourth period (Rule 5-2-9).

After a head coach’s conference or challenge, the full team timeout is granted if charged by the referee.

 

[PlayerRep]

Again, section 4d:

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

Rule, I saw that rule you quoted, and don't know what it means either, but I'm guessing it doesn't apply to the situation.

The rule I quoted a coach "may request" a TO. Doesn't look like the coach's "request" can mean that the TO starts when the coach says or signals TO. Looks like the ref then has to start/call the TO. It's clear that coach has to make request before the snap.

 

[PlayerRep]

I see that a ref is supposed to ignore a TO call if the team doesn't have anymore TO's.

I wonder what would happen if the coach called the TO before the snap, the ref thought that the team didn't have anymore TO's, the coach and ref have a fast brief exchange, the ref realizes he's wrong, and then he decides to call the TO several second later after the play has already been run. TO or not? Interesting.

 

[CatzWillRise]

I see that a ref is supposed to ignore a TO call if the team doesn't have anymore TO's.

I wonder what would happen if the coach called the TO before the snap, the ref thought that the team didn't have anymore TO's, the coach and ref have a fast brief exchange, the ref realizes he's wrong, and then he decides to call the TO several second later after the play has already been run. TO or not? Interesting.

Well it doesn’t matter why a whistle is blown, it ends play period. So in that scenario if a whistle is blown it is an inadvertent whistle and the ball is placed at the spot when the whistle was blown.

 

[PlayerRep]

The timing of the whistle does not matter. What if a coach called timeout 2 seconds before the snap but the ref had trouble blowing his whistle?

What would you all be saying if instead of scoring a TD the Griz threw a pick six?

Are you saying that a ref can signal a TO after the play is already over? How about after 2 plays have been run (really faulty whistle, and muscle cramp preventing him from running onto the field, ha).

I think you're missing the point. We are just discussing whether the TO was timely and properly called. It's just a theoretical discussion. We know the world won't change regardless of the answer.

 

[PlayerRep]

I see that a ref is supposed to ignore a TO call if the team doesn't have anymore TO's.

I wonder what would happen if the coach called the TO before the snap, the ref thought that the team didn't have anymore TO's, the coach and ref have a fast brief exchange, the ref realizes he's wrong, and then he decides to call the TO several second later after the play has already been run. TO or not? Interesting.

Well it doesn’t matter why a whistle is blown, it ends play period. So in that scenario if a whistle is blown it is an inadvertent whistle and the ball is placed at the spot when the whistle was blown.

The ball was in the end zone when the whistle was blown.

I had thought of the whistle thing too. Is it an inadvertent whistle if no player or ref hears it? Did anyone see any player or ref react as if they had heard a whistle? I sure didn't.

 

[Sam A. Blitz]

There is no rule against a coach leaving the coaches box to call a timeout. There is a rule against them leaving that area to argue a call. As much as it hurts, the entirety of the situation was legal, calculated, and well executed by Choate. If Hauck had done the same, you would be praising him, and rightfully so.

You are missing the point. See below.

There appears to be no rule that allows a coach to call a TO when he is not in the coaching box or the player area, or "in the vicinity". I took this from the 2017 rule book.

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

That's the rule. Looks like a coach doesn't get to call a TO from anywhere he wants to be.

There is also no rule that allows a TO to be called after the snap. My guess is that Choate waited too long, and the ref panicked and gave him the call. That's why it was so late. Just a hunch.

No one is criticizing Choate. Criticizing the refs.

Define vicinity. I saw Choate talk to the line judge before the play. My seats were a few rows up on the 15 yard line on the West side, so had a good view of it. It appeared he told him that he was going to call a TO right before the snap. The LJ didn't panick. He was ready for it to be called right before the snap, which it was. The whistle came after the snap, the TO was before. The only thing you can be critical of in that scenario is the timing of the whistle from the LJ. That doesn't dictate anything though.

15 yard line is out of the vicinity, in my view. Where, exactly, was Choate standing when the TO was called? How close was Choate to the player area or coaching box when he called the TO? If you were right there, I assume know.

How do you know it was called before the snap? What's your evidence of that? Did you hear Choate? Did Choate signal with his hands? if so, how could the ref see Choate and see whether the ball was snapped?

Why were you watching Choate and the ref when the TO was called, instead of the upcoming play, perhaps the most important play of the season. Seems odd that you weren't watching the upcoming play.

What's your support for saying the timing of the whistle doesn't matter? Just curious. Or, did you just make that up?

It wasn't the ref, it was the line judge.

It happened pretty close to below me. I was watching Choate because he was actively running around barking orders and engaged the LJ before the play. I'm assuming to have him prepared for the call?

What was the LJ supposed to do, ignore the TO call because he couldn't whistle before the snap? Ignore it when he was outside of an undefined vicinity? TO whistle happen during or immediately after the snap all the time. Coaches are outside the coaches box to talk to refs before live ball all the time, especially to call a TO in that situation.

Choate executed the entire thing well. It APPEARED that he was prepping for the TO and called it. I can't provide you "evidence". I don't have pictures and wasn't taking video. I don't really care if you believe me. It's my point of view on the play of which I had a pretty good observance point. Why didn't Hauck blow a gasket over it, if it was in fact an officiating error?

What would you have done differently as an official in that situation, PR, besides blowing the whistle sooner?

 

[CatzWillRise]

There is clear video on ROOT of Choate
mouthing he was going to call a timeout.

And I was just speaking to your hypothetical. That’s the protocol. A ref gets the request for timeout, you blow your whistle and run in waving your hands. So in a hypothetical situation like that if a ref came in blowing his whistle signaling for a timeout but the team didn’t have any left, the play would be dead at the time the whistle was blown.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Again, section 4d:

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

Rule, I saw that rule you quoted, and don't know what it means either, but I'm guessing it doesn't apply to the situation.

The rule I quoted a coach "may request" a TO. Doesn't look like the coach's "request" can mean that the TO starts when the coach says or signals TO. Looks like the ref then has to start/call the TO. It's clear that coach has to make request before the snap.

The rules are pretty vague. As is, either the rules have to be clearer, or the administration of timeouts have to be more beneficial to the officials. These last second timeouts complicate things for everyone. Maybe some kind of audible device should be given to coaches that can be heard well, even loud environments. Once a coach runs out of timeouts, his audible device would be taken.

I without doubt heard the whistle on the replay, very slightly after the snap. If, Choate did indeed tell the line judge of his intentions, the official should have blown the whistle sooner. Had that been the case, this would not be in question. I certainly am not faulting Choate for any of this. He and most other coaches usually do wait as long as they can. I hope, we can all somewhat agree, timeout rules have to be changed to help officials.

 

[PlayerRep]

There is clear video on ROOT of Choate
mouthing he was going to call a timeout.

And I was just speaking to your hypothetical. That’s the protocol. A ref gets the request for timeout, you blow your whistle and run in waving your hands. So in a hypothetical situation like that if a ref came in blowing his whistle signaling for a timeout but the team didn’t have any left, the play would be dead at the time the whistle was blown.

Did the ref come running onto the field waiving his hands and blowing his whistle? Is there video of that?

 

[mtgrizrule]

I see that a ref is supposed to ignore a TO call if the team doesn't have anymore TO's.

I wonder what would happen if the coach called the TO before the snap, the ref thought that the team didn't have anymore TO's, the coach and ref have a fast brief exchange, the ref realizes he's wrong, and then he decides to call the TO several second later after the play has already been run. TO or not? Interesting.

Well it doesn’t matter why a whistle is blown, it ends play period. So in that scenario if a whistle is blown it is an inadvertent whistle and the ball is placed at the spot when the whistle was blown.

The ball was in the end zone when the whistle was blown.

I had thought of the whistle thing too. Is it an inadvertent whistle if no player or ref hears it? Did anyone see any player or ref react as if they had heard a whistle? I sure didn't.

I thought that too, while attending the game. However, when I reviewed that play from the DVR. I heard a vague whistle just after (close to simultaneous) the snap started. The ball definitely was in motion for the snap. I even heard the whistle clearer when I added surround sound to it. I am guessing, it is likely that Choate communicated this, but it was administered and communicated by the official much later than it should have been.

 

[PlayerRep]

You are missing the point. See below.

There appears to be no rule that allows a coach to call a TO when he is not in the coaching box or the player area, or "in the vicinity". I took this from the 2017 rule book.

"A head coach who is in, or in the vicinity of, his team area or coaching box may request a timeout between the time the ball is declared dead and the next snap."

That's the rule. Looks like a coach doesn't get to call a TO from anywhere he wants to be.

There is also no rule that allows a TO to be called after the snap. My guess is that Choate waited too long, and the ref panicked and gave him the call. That's why it was so late. Just a hunch.

No one is criticizing Choate. Criticizing the refs.

Define vicinity. I saw Choate talk to the line judge before the play. My seats were a few rows up on the 15 yard line on the West side, so had a good view of it. It appeared he told him that he was going to call a TO right before the snap. The LJ didn't panick. He was ready for it to be called right before the snap, which it was. The whistle came after the snap, the TO was before. The only thing you can be critical of in that scenario is the timing of the whistle from the LJ. That doesn't dictate anything though.

15 yard line is out of the vicinity, in my view. Where, exactly, was Choate standing when the TO was called? How close was Choate to the player area or coaching box when he called the TO? If you were right there, I assume know.

How do you know it was called before the snap? What's your evidence of that? Did you hear Choate? Did Choate signal with his hands? if so, how could the ref see Choate and see whether the ball was snapped?

Why were you watching Choate and the ref when the TO was called, instead of the upcoming play, perhaps the most important play of the season. Seems odd that you weren't watching the upcoming play.

What's your support for saying the timing of the whistle doesn't matter? Just curious. Or, did you just make that up?

It wasn't the ref, it was the line judge.

It happened pretty close to below me. I was watching Choate because he was actively running around barking orders and engaged the LJ before the play. I'm assuming to have him prepared for the call?

What was the LJ supposed to do, ignore the TO call because he couldn't whistle before the snap? Ignore it when he was outside of an undefined vicinity? TO whistle happen during or immediately after the snap all the time. Coaches are outside the coaches box to talk to refs before live ball all the time, especially to call a TO in that situation.

Choate executed the entire thing well. It APPEARED that he was prepping for the TO and called it. I can't provide you "evidence". I don't have pictures and wasn't taking video. I don't really care if you believe me. It's my point of view on the play of which I had a pretty good observance point. Why didn't Hauck blow a gasket over it, if it was in fact an officiating error?

What would you have done differently as an official in that situation, PR, besides blowing the whistle sooner?

In my view, all officials on the field are "refs". Don't get your feelings hurt. I'm just challenging some of what you said. You said Choate called the TO timely and properly, but I knew that you couldn't possibly have known that and it was unlikely that you were even looking at Choate/ref at the time. You would have been looking at the play.

On Hauck, do you know he didn't blow a gasket? I assume he didn't want to get a penalty at that point of the game and at that point of the field. I would hope he'd be very careful.