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Engstrom Gets His Raise

EverettGriz said:
Frankly, I'm shocked at how low those salaries are.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm glad I wasn't the only one, EG. :shock:

A classic case of "you get exactly what you're willing to pay for."
 
tnt said:
Heres the problem. Enrollment is only one number. Graduation is the one that counts. MSU was in deep dooh just a few years ago at only 26%. They have that number headed in right direction. U of M is having record graduations both in number an percentage more importantly as an impact in Montana the number Employed in Montana: College of Technology 93% Bachelors 57% Masters 62% Doctoral (including Law) 66%. Total graduation was very close to 50% and continues up.

Sadly these results matter as much as "enrollment" as an impact to the state and return on investment matter as much if not more than enrollment numbers. We could have 20,000 students but if they don't graduate, why bother? Not that it would matter to the Engstrom haters.

One of the things MSU has done is offered more majors for their students who flunk out of the engineering programs to drop down to. Not a bad strategy except with their lack of Liberal arts options, they may produce degrees but they are not producing critical thinkers in fields where they are necessary. (business being one of them) The enrollment problem must stop at U of M or the Liberal arts that are so necessary to so many of the key programs at U of M will start to be hurt.............. But for now both schools are headed the right direction and the taxpayers are getting a lot more bang for the buck.
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Maybe it is also because many of the liberal arts degrees produce "critical thinkers" instead of employable graduates. As demonstrated by the professor from UM's letter to the editor a couple of months back. She basically stated that the purpose of college is to expand your thinking, not to make you employable.

I am pretty sure that most of the parents (including this one) who are paying for a college education or two would disagree.....

MSU and Montana Tech show commercials of their graduates applying their skills at high paying jobs. UM shows commercials of people walking in the woods, looking at owls, reading and dancing.
 
So, TNT, are you suggesting it is acceptable if our enrollment continues to decrease as long as the graduation percentage is up? Makes sense to me.
 
grizpack said:
tnt said:
Heres the problem. Enrollment is only one number. Graduation is the one that counts. MSU was in deep dooh just a few years ago at only 26%. They have that number headed in right direction. U of M is having record graduations both in number an percentage more importantly as an impact in Montana the number Employed in Montana: College of Technology 93% Bachelors 57% Masters 62% Doctoral (including Law) 66%. Total graduation was very close to 50% and continues up.

Sadly these results matter as much as "enrollment" as an impact to the state and return on investment matter as much if not more than enrollment numbers. We could have 20,000 students but if they don't graduate, why bother? Not that it would matter to the Engstrom haters.

One of the things MSU has done is offered more majors for their students who flunk out of the engineering programs to drop down to. Not a bad strategy except with their lack of Liberal arts options, they may produce degrees but they are not producing critical thinkers in fields where they are necessary. (business being one of them) The enrollment problem must stop at U of M or the Liberal arts that are so necessary to so many of the key programs at U of M will start to be hurt.............. But for now both schools are headed the right direction and the taxpayers are getting a lot more bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is also because many of the liberal arts degrees produce "critical thinkers" instead of employable graduates. As demonstrated by the professor from UM's letter to the editor a couple of months back. She basically stated that the purpose of college is to expand your thinking, not to make you employable.

I am pretty sure that most of the parents (including this one) who are paying for a college education or two would disagree.....

MSU and Montana Tech show commercials of their graduates applying their skills at high paying jobs. UM shows commercials of people walking in the woods, looking at owls, reading and dancing.
Click to expand...

Could be, here's the funny thing. Critical thinkers (Liberal arts - BA vs BS) have higher life time earnings and greater career advancement. (there are a few exceptions: early childhood education, elementary education, home economics, and social work.) While and engineer (especially petroleum) may have a higher starting salary, it stays pretty much the same throughout his career and he ends up working for the Liberal arts based guy whos next step is a graduate program MBA, JD, along with a lot of industry/professional designations etc. The Petroleum Guy spends his career reading core samples, occasionally moves up might even become a "senior Geologist" Expanding thinker/critical thinkers in the meantime are the ones who make things happen. If they haven't got the ability to "think" it doesn't matter WHAT their degree is in

Heres a bunch of charts and Graphs and stuff: http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/major_decisions_what_graduates_earn_over_their_lifetimes/
 
tnt said:
grizpack said:
tnt said:
Heres the problem. Enrollment is only one number. Graduation is the one that counts. MSU was in deep dooh just a few years ago at only 26%. They have that number headed in right direction. U of M is having record graduations both in number an percentage more importantly as an impact in Montana the number Employed in Montana: College of Technology 93% Bachelors 57% Masters 62% Doctoral (including Law) 66%. Total graduation was very close to 50% and continues up.

Sadly these results matter as much as "enrollment" as an impact to the state and return on investment matter as much if not more than enrollment numbers. We could have 20,000 students but if they don't graduate, why bother? Not that it would matter to the Engstrom haters.

One of the things MSU has done is offered more majors for their students who flunk out of the engineering programs to drop down to. Not a bad strategy except with their lack of Liberal arts options, they may produce degrees but they are not producing critical thinkers in fields where they are necessary. (business being one of them) The enrollment problem must stop at U of M or the Liberal arts that are so necessary to so many of the key programs at U of M will start to be hurt.............. But for now both schools are headed the right direction and the taxpayers are getting a lot more bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is also because many of the liberal arts degrees produce "critical thinkers" instead of employable graduates. As demonstrated by the professor from UM's letter to the editor a couple of months back. She basically stated that the purpose of college is to expand your thinking, not to make you employable.

I am pretty sure that most of the parents (including this one) who are paying for a college education or two would disagree.....

MSU and Montana Tech show commercials of their graduates applying their skills at high paying jobs. UM shows commercials of people walking in the woods, looking at owls, reading and dancing.
Click to expand...

Could be, here's the funny thing. Critical thinkers (Liberal arts - BA vs BS) have higher life time earnings and greater career advancement. (there are a few exceptions: early childhood education, elementary education, home economics, and social work.) While and engineer (especially petroleum) may have a higher starting salary, it stays pretty much the same throughout his career and he ends up working for the Liberal arts based guy whos next step is a graduate program MBA, JD, along with a lot of industry/professional designations etc. The Petroleum Guy spends his career reading core samples, occasionally moves up might even become a "senior Geologist" Expanding thinker/critical thinkers in the meantime are the ones who make things happen. If they haven't got the ability to "think" it doesn't matter WHAT their degree is in

Heres a bunch of charts and Graphs and stuff: http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/major_decisions_what_graduates_earn_over_their_lifetimes/
Click to expand...

Don't you have to preface your stats by indicating that these are the few that find employment in their field? You did reference those that get a graduate degree, as their undergraduate degree was basically useless.

I don't disagree that there are a few liberal arts programs that generally produce well paying professionals. However, those are far outweighed by the degrees that are virtually useless on their own, unless you go on to teach in that field. How may philosophy, creative writing, dance, drama, political science (I could go on and on) graduates are actually earning a better living with just their undergraduate degree??? Is there a chart for that?

I went to UM. I am proud that I went to UM. I actually support UM both personally and financially. But I think UM in the last 5-10 years is like a rudderless ship, and the rest of the schools are just blowing by us. And I think RE is an academic who has absolutely NO IDEA what is going on in the world around him, and certainly has no business sense whatsoever. Sitting in Main Hall telling yourself "All is well" isn't going to solve anything.
 
grizpack said:
tnt said:
grizpack said:
tnt said:
Heres the problem. Enrollment is only one number. Graduation is the one that counts. MSU was in deep dooh just a few years ago at only 26%. They have that number headed in right direction. U of M is having record graduations both in number an percentage more importantly as an impact in Montana the number Employed in Montana: College of Technology 93% Bachelors 57% Masters 62% Doctoral (including Law) 66%. Total graduation was very close to 50% and continues up.

Sadly these results matter as much as "enrollment" as an impact to the state and return on investment matter as much if not more than enrollment numbers. We could have 20,000 students but if they don't graduate, why bother? Not that it would matter to the Engstrom haters.

One of the things MSU has done is offered more majors for their students who flunk out of the engineering programs to drop down to. Not a bad strategy except with their lack of Liberal arts options, they may produce degrees but they are not producing critical thinkers in fields where they are necessary. (business being one of them) The enrollment problem must stop at U of M or the Liberal arts that are so necessary to so many of the key programs at U of M will start to be hurt.............. But for now both schools are headed the right direction and the taxpayers are getting a lot more bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is also because many of the liberal arts degrees produce "critical thinkers" instead of employable graduates. As demonstrated by the professor from UM's letter to the editor a couple of months back. She basically stated that the purpose of college is to expand your thinking, not to make you employable.

I am pretty sure that most of the parents (including this one) who are paying for a college education or two would disagree.....

MSU and Montana Tech show commercials of their graduates applying their skills at high paying jobs. UM shows commercials of people walking in the woods, looking at owls, reading and dancing.
Click to expand...

Could be, here's the funny thing. Critical thinkers (Liberal arts - BA vs BS) have higher life time earnings and greater career advancement. (there are a few exceptions: early childhood education, elementary education, home economics, and social work.) While and engineer (especially petroleum) may have a higher starting salary, it stays pretty much the same throughout his career and he ends up working for the Liberal arts based guy whos next step is a graduate program MBA, JD, along with a lot of industry/professional designations etc. The Petroleum Guy spends his career reading core samples, occasionally moves up might even become a "senior Geologist" Expanding thinker/critical thinkers in the meantime are the ones who make things happen. If they haven't got the ability to "think" it doesn't matter WHAT their degree is in

Heres a bunch of charts and Graphs and stuff: http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/major_decisions_what_graduates_earn_over_their_lifetimes/
Click to expand...

Don't you have to preface your stats by indicating that these are the few that find employment in their field? You did reference those that get a graduate degree, as their undergraduate degree was basically useless.

I don't disagree that there are a few liberal arts programs that generally produce well paying professionals. However, those are far outweighed by the degrees that are virtually useless on their own, unless you go on to teach in that field. How may philosophy, creative writing, dance, drama, political science (I could go on and on) graduates are actually earning a better living with just their undergraduate degree??? Is there a chart for that?

I went to UM. I am proud that I went to UM. I actually support UM both personally and financially. But I think UM in the last 5-10 years is like a rudderless ship, and the rest of the schools are just blowing by us. And I think RE is an academic who has absolutely NO IDEA what is going on in the world around him, and certainly has no business sense whatsoever. Sitting in Main Hall telling yourself "All is well" isn't going to solve anything.
Click to expand...

Actually the Hamilton project is based on just a bachelors degree nor is the employment in the "major field" Very few degrees are "vocational" nor are they directly related to the job the graduate performs. My sister in law for example is a vice president in charge of accounting for a national bank firm. She draws 7 figures plus bonus. She has several thousand accounting majors working under her. She graduated in "communications" (She does have an MBA paid for by the company as does my nephew who graduated in Social Studies and is the VP of Customer Services for a cruise line. Having the degree is the critical issue, utilizing the process of getting it is what makes one employable, individual talent is what makes them successful. Just because someone has degree in coaching, doesn't mean he can coach..............

UM's graduates are still well educated and do very well. THAT is because of the tenured faculty.
 
tnt said:
grizpack said:
tnt said:
Heres the problem. Enrollment is only one number. Graduation is the one that counts. MSU was in deep dooh just a few years ago at only 26%. They have that number headed in right direction. U of M is having record graduations both in number an percentage more importantly as an impact in Montana the number Employed in Montana: College of Technology 93% Bachelors 57% Masters 62% Doctoral (including Law) 66%. Total graduation was very close to 50% and continues up.

Sadly these results matter as much as "enrollment" as an impact to the state and return on investment matter as much if not more than enrollment numbers. We could have 20,000 students but if they don't graduate, why bother? Not that it would matter to the Engstrom haters.

One of the things MSU has done is offered more majors for their students who flunk out of the engineering programs to drop down to. Not a bad strategy except with their lack of Liberal arts options, they may produce degrees but they are not producing critical thinkers in fields where they are necessary. (business being one of them) The enrollment problem must stop at U of M or the Liberal arts that are so necessary to so many of the key programs at U of M will start to be hurt.............. But for now both schools are headed the right direction and the taxpayers are getting a lot more bang for the buck.
Click to expand...

Maybe it is also because many of the liberal arts degrees produce "critical thinkers" instead of employable graduates. As demonstrated by the professor from UM's letter to the editor a couple of months back. She basically stated that the purpose of college is to expand your thinking, not to make you employable.

I am pretty sure that most of the parents (including this one) who are paying for a college education or two would disagree.....

MSU and Montana Tech show commercials of their graduates applying their skills at high paying jobs. UM shows commercials of people walking in the woods, looking at owls, reading and dancing.
Click to expand...

Could be, here's the funny thing. Critical thinkers (Liberal arts - BA vs BS) have higher life time earnings and greater career advancement. (there are a few exceptions: early childhood education, elementary education, home economics, and social work.) While and engineer (especially petroleum) may have a higher starting salary, it stays pretty much the same throughout his career and he ends up working for the Liberal arts based guy whos next step is a graduate program MBA, JD, along with a lot of industry/professional designations etc. The Petroleum Guy spends his career reading core samples, occasionally moves up might even become a "senior Geologist" Expanding thinker/critical thinkers in the meantime are the ones who make things happen. If they haven't got the ability to "think" it doesn't matter WHAT their degree is in

Heres a bunch of charts and Graphs and stuff: http://www.hamiltonproject.org/papers/major_decisions_what_graduates_earn_over_their_lifetimes/
Click to expand...

Looks like Engineers have higher lifetime earnings. From the charts and graphs and stuff you posted...

"Majors that emphasize quantitative skills tend to have graduates with the highest lifetime earnings. The highest-earning majors are those in engineering fields, computer science, operations and logistics, physics, economics, and finance."
 
"computer science (IT), operations and logistics, physics, economics, and finance." are fields from the UM...... With the exception of Physics have a very broad Liberal arts base. and actually the Physics department at U of M which has an excellent reputation has pretty strong Liberal arts core requirement.
 
tnt said:
"computer science (IT), operations and logistics, physics, economics, and finance." are fields from the UM...... With the exception of Physics have a very broad Liberal arts base. and actually the Physics department at U of M which has an excellent reputation has pretty strong Liberal arts core requirement.
Click to expand...

But, if you look at the chart.....engineers of nearly every flavor are at the top...one right after the next. I don't know the right answer. But, as a Dad with kids nearing college-age....I can assure you I am going to nudge them to engineering well before I nudge them to liberal arts degrees.

UM should be doing more to communicate where they do well on the periphery of engineering as you have done. But, they might also find areas to carve out more of these things in their offerings.

BTW ---Texas A&M recently passed UT in attendance for the first time. So, liberal arts downturn is not unique to UM.
 
SoldierGriz said:
tnt said:
"computer science (IT), operations and logistics, physics, economics, and finance." are fields from the UM...... With the exception of Physics have a very broad Liberal arts base. and actually the Physics department at U of M which has an excellent reputation has pretty strong Liberal arts core requirement.
Click to expand...

But, if you look at the chart.....engineers of nearly every flavor are at the top...one right after the next. I don't know the right answer. But, as a Dad with kids nearing college-age....I can assure you I am going to nudge them to engineering well before I nudge them to liberal arts degrees.

UM should be doing more to communicate where they do well on the periphery of engineering as you have done. But, they might also find areas to carve out more of these things in their offerings.

BTW ---Texas A&M recently passed UT in attendance for the first time. So, liberal arts downturn is not unique to UM.
Click to expand...

Engineering is great if they are interested..... I would suggest however MSU over Tech and if you can a "Gonzaga" over MSU. Right now Tech type engineers are a dime a dozen, and it doesn't look good for the future. (although oil went up a bit today) MSU type Engineer who can cross careers have a hope. The most important thing all those graphs and stuff show is that the degree opens the door, whether the kiddo walks through it and makes something of it is another matter. Keep in mind for most part the engineers can only be engineers
 
Does this mean the entire BOR are democrats? Except for one?

$15.00 Per Hour Min Wage?

I wish they would all move to the NE Coast and enjoy the existing global warmth!
 
bgbigdog said:
tnt said:
SoldierGriz said:
tnt said:
Keep in mind for most part the engineers can only be engineers
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Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Wait.... What?
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That right unlike a number of other degree areas.................. The quantitative degrees lock you into a very NARROW career. Hopefully they like reading blueprints, or sitting wells. That's what they will be doing for 40+ years. Very narrow focus. Opposed to say the Business/IT guy who has no end of possibilities.
 
tnt said:
Keep in mind for most part the engineers can only be engineers
Click to expand...

This is a over-generalization that lacks merit. One example: One member of my family got an engineering degree at MSU and was hired by the railroad as a management trainee, where engineering has little to do with the work. The railroad just feels that students who go through such a rigorous program will make good managers, if they are trained right. Another member of the family also has an engineering degree and workers for a big company in quality control, not in engineering.

An engineering grad from Montana Tech is CEO of one of the world's largest energy firms, ConocoPhillips.

One could go on and on...
 
Why ANYONE at any level of education makes more than 50k a year is a fu*king travesty.

It's teaching or administration.......it's maybe an 18 dollar an hour job one step up from fast food restaurants.

What a waste of money
 
grizonbob said:
tnt said:
Keep in mind for most part the engineers can only be engineers
Click to expand...

This is a over-generalization that lacks merit. One example: One member of my family got an engineering degree at MSU and was hired by the railroad as a management trainee, where engineering has little to do with the work. The railroad just feels that students who go through such a rigorous program will make good managers, if they are trained right. Another member of the family also has an engineering degree and workers for a big company in quality control, not in engineering.

An engineering grad from Montana Tech is CEO of one of the world's largest energy firms, ConocoPhillips.

One could go on and on...
Click to expand...

The guy who founded RightNow Technologies in Bozeman and sold it to Oracle for $1.8 Billion is an engineer. He obviously did something more than just be an engineer. I read that he owned about 25% of the company when it was sold.
 
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