Grading the Griz, pre-fall camp

[BWahlberg]

This thread should be called "Pass the Sugar"... sponsored by Kelloggs' "Frosted Flakes".The usual suspects are vying for the prize. How could you possibly score the "kicking club" above a "D-"...seriously. They kick like "Culture Club" :roll: We had to alter our game plan in the playoffs because of their sustained, propensity to fail. We went for it on multiple 4th down tries and you could argue it was lethal to the outcome. T.E. how about an incomplete? 0 experience at the position at the NCAA varsity level. The most dominate players for their positions are Hendy and the punter Shaw. :egriz:

Mega fail

See what I mean Brint?

Sure do :thumb:

I'm going going to revise every position except QB to an F and I'll give QB a D- and then check in at foursquare to get my "objective poster badge".

 

[CV Griz Fan]

This thread should be called "Pass the Sugar"... sponsored by Kelloggs' "Frosted Flakes".The usual suspects are vying for the prize. How could you possibly score the "kicking club" above a "D-"...seriously. They kick like "Culture Club" :roll: We had to alter our game plan in the playoffs because of their sustained, propensity to fail. We went for it on multiple 4th down tries and you could argue it was lethal to the outcome. T.E. how about an incomplete? 0 experience at the position at the NCAA varsity level. The most dominate players for their positions are Hendy and the punter Shaw. :egriz:

Mega fail

See what I mean Brint?

Sure do :thumb:

I'm going going to revise every position except QB to an F and I'll give QB a D- and then check in at foursquare to get my "objective poster badge".

The beauty is that in a few weeks the 2014 Griz season will start. We'll all know soon enough what this Montana team has or doesn't have. Whether it's Brint, PR, Rimrock, Raider or me all we are doing is conjecturing at this point. Nobody has a crystal ball although Indian Outlaw did predict the 2013 season almost perfectly from what I remember.

 

[garizzalies]

The defense has been labeled...unable to adapt as well.

I think Delaney and his staff have done great things for us but I think this is the biggest knock. We were very spoiled with Bobby and his staff and the 2nd half adjustments they would make. I can't count how many games went into halftime either struggling to take control or losing, only to come out in the second half and dominante. Last year we seen some of that second half mojo but that was largely in part of great independent plays by great players(Tripp's blocked feild goal and JJ in the clutch against Cal Po, Ellis and Hermy vs SD, and JJ and Ellis being themselves against Sac St.

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

 

[PlayerRep]

The defense has been labeled...unable to adapt as well.

I think Delaney and his staff have done great things for us but I think this is the biggest knock. We were very spoiled with Bobby and his staff and the 2nd half adjustments they would make. I can't count how many games went into halftime either struggling to take control or losing, only to come out in the second half and dominante. Last year we seen some of that second half mojo but that was largely in part of great independent plays by great players(Tripp's blocked feild goal and JJ in the clutch against Cal Po, Ellis and Hermy vs SD, and JJ and Ellis being themselves against Sac St.

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

 

[CV Griz Fan]

I think Delaney and his staff have done great things for us but I think this is the biggest knock. We were very spoiled with Bobby and his staff and the 2nd half adjustments they would make. I can't count how many games went into halftime either struggling to take control or losing, only to come out in the second half and dominante. Last year we seen some of that second half mojo but that was largely in part of great independent plays by great players(Tripp's blocked feild goal and JJ in the clutch against Cal Po, Ellis and Hermy vs SD, and JJ and Ellis being themselves against Sac St.

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

PR:
I totally agree with your point about JJ and the fact that he missed the 2012 season and I've said so on some of your past posts on this topic. If he plays in 2012, the Griz probably have 2-3 more wins. You also can't discount the fact that ND, MSU and ASU were clearly worse teams in 2013 then they were in 2012. That's 3 more wins right there. With JJ and coaching staffs in place, both seasons are fairly comparable IMO.

 

[mcg]

The OL grade should count double (or triple). The best QB, backs and receivers are useless if the line can't block. This defense will buckle if the offense can't make 1st downs and keep the defense off the field. This teams final grade will match the grade earned by the OL.

 

[go96griz]

I think Delaney and his staff have done great things for us but I think this is the biggest knock. We were very spoiled with Bobby and his staff and the 2nd half adjustments they would make. I can't count how many games went into halftime either struggling to take control or losing, only to come out in the second half and dominante. Last year we seen some of that second half mojo but that was largely in part of great independent plays by great players(Tripp's blocked feild goal and JJ in the clutch against Cal Po, Ellis and Hermy vs SD, and JJ and Ellis being themselves against Sac St.

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

PR, I am almost in total agreement with you. I think this team has the talent to win a championship in 2014 if a couple of things fall in place. Besides injury, which is out of our control, I have two concerns that will affect our outcome: o-line play and defensive coaching. Since Breske left and Ty took over, the defensive backfield play has not been great, although, it was better last year. This could be a talent issue where we have good coaching in place, but had a thin bench. Even last year, though, we couldn't seem to stop a team on 3rd down regardless of distance. That is why I start to question the coaching. I am a huge Ty supporter, but I believe this is his make or break year. Believe me, I want him to be successful.

 

[PlayerRep]

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

PR, I am almost in total agreement with you. I think this team has the talent to win a championship in 2014 if a couple of things fall in place. Besides injury, which is out of our control, I have two concerns that will affect our outcome: o-line play and defensive coaching. Since Breske left and Ty took over, the defensive backfield play has not been great, although, it was better last year. This could be a talent issue where we have good coaching in place, but had a thin bench. Even last year, though, we couldn't seem to stop a team on 3rd down regardless of distance. That is why I start to question the coaching. I am a huge Ty supporter, but I believe this is his make or break year. Believe me, I want him to be successful.

I'm still reserving judgment on the overall success of the team. Need to see the team in action, particularly several position groups. For me, assessing most of the positions is easier than predicting the win-loss record. The schedule is hard.

I liked Breske, but he hasn't had a great defense everywhere he's been. Look at NDSU. Don't know what caused that. And WSU. My view is the secondary play in recent years was impacted by a lower level of talent and experience (including no Trumaines, Jimmy Wilsons, etc.), Hermansen's injuries in '12, maybe the safety coach before Cookus, and the mistakes and level of play by other portions of the defense at times. While you note improved play from '12 to '13, note that the starters were essentially the same, minus a very good corner in '12. Gregorak is surely learning and improving as a d-coordinator from year to year to year, but I actually don't blame the weaker pass coverage on him (altho I don't give him a pass on this either). Agree on the inability to stop 3d down conversions too much of the time. Glad you like Gregorak, because if the defense has a strong year, I think he was a decent chance of becoming the head coach.

 

[garizzalies]

I think Delaney and his staff have done great things for us but I think this is the biggest knock. We were very spoiled with Bobby and his staff and the 2nd half adjustments they would make. I can't count how many games went into halftime either struggling to take control or losing, only to come out in the second half and dominante. Last year we seen some of that second half mojo but that was largely in part of great independent plays by great players(Tripp's blocked feild goal and JJ in the clutch against Cal Po, Ellis and Hermy vs SD, and JJ and Ellis being themselves against Sac St.

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

You are not making any sense. Read the posts again. I believe the improvement between 12 and 13 was mainly one of talent, and not coaching. You seem to agree with me (see bold) and have even previously argued that JJ in 12 would have resulted in about 4 more wins. But you apparently need to argue just for the heck of it?

 

[garizzalies]

I pray for JJ's health. And I'm not even churchy.

My biggest fear is to see JJ end his career, not injured like Selle, but like Chase--to heavy to carry the load alone while not 100%. For some reason, it seemed even more frustrating

 

[AZGrizFan]

This thread should be called "Pass the Sugar"... sponsored by Kelloggs' "Frosted Flakes".The usual suspects are vying for the prize. How could you possibly score the "kicking club" above a "D-"...seriously. They kick like "Culture Club" :roll: We had to alter our game plan in the playoffs because of their sustained, propensity to fail. We went for it on multiple 4th down tries and you could argue it was lethal to the outcome. T.E. how about an incomplete? 0 experience at the position at the NCAA varsity level. The most dominate players for their positions are Hendy and the punter Shaw. :egriz:

Mega fail

See what I mean Brint?

Sure do :thumb:

I'm going going to revise every position except QB to an F and I'll give QB a D- and then check in at foursquare to get my "objective poster badge".

The beauty is that in a few weeks the 2014 Griz season will start. We'll all know soon enough what this Montana team has or doesn't have. Whether it's Brint, PR, Rimrock, Raider or me all we are doing is conjecturing at this point. Nobody has a crystal ball although Indian Outlaw did predict the 2013 season almost perfectly from what I remember.

The real question is if the Griz limp back to Wa/Griz for homecoming with a 2-2 record will the buzzards be circling eGriz?

 

[CV Griz Fan]

Mega fail

See what I mean Brint?

Sure do :thumb:

I'm going going to revise every position except QB to an F and I'll give QB a D- and then check in at foursquare to get my "objective poster badge".

The beauty is that in a few weeks the 2014 Griz season will start. We'll all know soon enough what this Montana team has or doesn't have. Whether it's Brint, PR, Rimrock, Raider or me all we are doing is conjecturing at this point. Nobody has a crystal ball although Indian Outlaw did predict the 2013 season almost perfectly from what I remember.

The real question is if the Griz limp back to Wa/Griz for homecoming with a 2-2 record will the buzzards be circling eGriz?

Probably but who cares? They could still finish strong in conference.

 

[BWahlberg]

Mega fail

See what I mean Brint?

Sure do :thumb:

I'm going going to revise every position except QB to an F and I'll give QB a D- and then check in at foursquare to get my "objective poster badge".

The beauty is that in a few weeks the 2014 Griz season will start. We'll all know soon enough what this Montana team has or doesn't have. Whether it's Brint, PR, Rimrock, Raider or me all we are doing is conjecturing at this point. Nobody has a crystal ball although Indian Outlaw did predict the 2013 season almost perfectly from what I remember.

The real question is if the Griz limp back to Wa/Griz for homecoming with a 2-2 record will the buzzards be circling eGriz?

Heck if the Griz came back home for homecoming 4-0 there'd be buzzards circling claiming the wins weren't by a wide enough margin.

 

[PlayerRep]

I will say this, in 2012 the Griz had many games where they had the lead at the half or it was real close, and lost the game in the 2nd half. Griz had a 24-7 lead over NAU, 26-17 lead over EWU, 17-13 lead over SUU, and a 7-3 lead over MSU. Some of those (like the EWU game) were late leads, but adjustments did the Griz in that year. Hop to 2013 and in their 3 losses the Griz actually adjusted better in the 2nd half and closed the gap in all 3 games... but it wasn't enough. You see they've improved quite a bit there, I'm hoping yet another year produces even better results.

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

You are not making any sense. Read the posts again. I believe the improvement between 12 and 13 was mainly one of talent, and not coaching. You seem to agree with me (see bold) and have even previously argued that JJ in 12 would have resulted in about 4 more wins. But you apparently need to argue just for the heck of it?

Nope, I said the vast improvement was mostly due to having one player, JJ, back on the '13. It was not the level of talent. Just one player. In my parlance, the talent was level was roughly the same on the team, but for the star qb. If you are agree with that, then we are in agreement. If you don't, then we are not in agreement.

 

[BWahlberg]

The games Bama mentioned were won because of talent. The games BWhal mentioned were lost because of coaching. Did the coaching improve between 12 and 13, or the talent? I guess you could say the coaching improved as they were "co-co-coordinators" and they were not making the horrific mistakes my grandma could avoid but look at the difference in players (JJ, Hendu, Jones, Van, Wilson, etc).

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

You are not making any sense. Read the posts again. I believe the improvement between 12 and 13 was mainly one of talent, and not coaching. You seem to agree with me (see bold) and have even previously argued that JJ in 12 would have resulted in about 4 more wins. But you apparently need to argue just for the heck of it?

Nope, I said the vast improvement was mostly due to having one player, JJ, back on the '13. It was not the level of talent. Just one player. In my parlance, the talent was level was roughly the same on the team, but for the star qb. If you are agree with that, then we are in agreement. If you don't, then we are not in agreement.

Backing up PR's point, look at the 2012 roster changes for starters:

QB changed from SSH/McKinney to JJ
RB changed from Moore/Nguyen/Canada to Canada/Van
LG changed from Hendrickson to Poole
TE changed from Hardy to Pierson
WR2 changed from Gratton to Jones

DE changed from Harris to Holmes
CB2 changed from Murray to Harris

Otherwise everyone else was back at the same spot, Schmaing, Oiland, Pohehls, Kistler, Henderson, Warren, Wags, Takai, Bienemann, Coyle, Tripp, Kanongata'a, Tully, Hermanson, and Goodwin.

One could argue that statistically the roster changes almost across the board equated to an upgrade.

 

[PlayerRep]

For the umpteenth time, the coaches and team were largely the same from '12 to '13. What changed is that JJ was the qb in '13, and UM didn't have 2 total rookies at qb as they did in '12. This is so obvious that I find it unbelievable that some of you refuse to acknowledge that. And yes, coaching probably improved slightly from '12 to '13 because the head coach and coordinators gained a year of experience, both being in their positions and working with each other. There is no way that talent (other than JJ) caused the bulk of the improvement.

Please name some of the horrific mistakes by the co-coordinators that your grandma could avoid.

Van, while an exciting player, was hurt much of the year. Had 566 yards and 13 receptions. Wilson is a very good blocker, but often wasn't even on the field. Jones was a nice addition, but note that some on the board don't think he made much of an impact. Yes, Henderson had a great year in '13. However, only 20 more catches than the prior year. Again, having someone to throw the ball to him and the receivers also made a huge difference. The defense also performed better in '13, with very similar personnel--and I submit that this was partially due to have an offense (JJ), which didn't disappear and sputter later in the game and when some first downs or scores were needed.

You are not making any sense. Read the posts again. I believe the improvement between 12 and 13 was mainly one of talent, and not coaching. You seem to agree with me (see bold) and have even previously argued that JJ in 12 would have resulted in about 4 more wins. But you apparently need to argue just for the heck of it?

Nope, I said the vast improvement was mostly due to having one player, JJ, back on the '13. It was not the level of talent. Just one player. In my parlance, the talent was level was roughly the same on the team, but for the star qb. If you are agree with that, then we are in agreement. If you don't, then we are not in agreement.

Backing up PR's point, look at the 2012 roster changes for starters:

QB changed from SSH/McKinney to JJ
RB changed from Moore/Nguyen/Canada to Canada/Van
LG changed from Hendrickson to Poole
TE changed from Hardy to Pierson
WR2 changed from Gratton to Jones

DE changed from Harris to Holmes
CB2 changed from Murray to Harris

Otherwise everyone else was back at the same spot, Schmaing, Oiland, Pohehls, Kistler, Henderson, Warren, Wags, Takai, Bienemann, Coyle, Tripp, Kanongata'a, Tully, Hermanson, and Goodwin.

One could argue that statistically the roster changes almost across the board equated to an upgrade.

Thanks for doing that. I would argue that rb's were a wash, as Nguyen was very good and 2d team all-conference and Moore was very good when healthy and gave us a big back. Don't know if Poole was better last year than Hendrixson as a senior. Hardy was probably better than Pierson. Gratton and Jones are different kinds of receivers. Like them both. Don't know on Harris and Holmes--trading a good senior for an underclassman. I thought Murray was pretty good, but don't know on the comparison.

 

[BWahlberg]

You are not making any sense. Read the posts again. I believe the improvement between 12 and 13 was mainly one of talent, and not coaching. You seem to agree with me (see bold) and have even previously argued that JJ in 12 would have resulted in about 4 more wins. But you apparently need to argue just for the heck of it?

Nope, I said the vast improvement was mostly due to having one player, JJ, back on the '13. It was not the level of talent. Just one player. In my parlance, the talent was level was roughly the same on the team, but for the star qb. If you are agree with that, then we are in agreement. If you don't, then we are not in agreement.

Backing up PR's point, look at the 2012 roster changes for starters:

QB changed from SSH/McKinney to JJ
RB changed from Moore/Nguyen/Canada to Canada/Van
LG changed from Hendrickson to Poole
TE changed from Hardy to Pierson
WR2 changed from Gratton to Jones

DE changed from Harris to Holmes
CB2 changed from Murray to Harris

Otherwise everyone else was back at the same spot, Schmaing, Oiland, Pohehls, Kistler, Henderson, Warren, Wags, Takai, Bienemann, Coyle, Tripp, Kanongata'a, Tully, Hermanson, and Goodwin.

One could argue that statistically the roster changes almost across the board equated to an upgrade.

Thanks for doing that. I would argue that rb's were a wash, as Nguyen was very good and 2d team all-conference and Moore was very good when healthy and gave us a big back. Don't know if Poole was better last year than Hendrixson as a senior. Hardy was probably better than Pierson. Gratton and Jones are different kinds of receivers. Like them both. Don't know on Harris and Holmes--trading a good senior for an underclassman. I thought Murray was pretty good, but don't know on the comparison.

Comparing stats only tells part of the story but...

2012 to 2013:

QB: 2343 yards, 16 TDs, 11 INTs in 2012 to 3387 yards, 32 TDs, 5 INTs
RB: 1139 yards and 9 TDs in 2012 to 1585 yards and 24 TDs.
TE: 273 yards 1 TD for Hardy in 2012 to 169 yards and 5 TDs for Pierson
WR: 397 yards and 1 TD for Gratton to 760 yards and 1 TD for Jones
DE: 39 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 7.5 TFL, 1 fumble for Harris in 2012 to 37 tackles, 4 sacks, 6 TFL for Holmes
CB: 50 tackles, 2 INTs, 7 passes defended for Murray to 41 tackles, 2 INTs, 14 passes defended, 1 forced fumble for Goodwin

So QB was the largest overall upgrade, RB was next. One could argue that it's hard to compare TE and WR receiving numbers due to the QB situation.

 

[PlayerRep]

Nope, I said the vast improvement was mostly due to having one player, JJ, back on the '13. It was not the level of talent. Just one player. In my parlance, the talent was level was roughly the same on the team, but for the star qb. If you are agree with that, then we are in agreement. If you don't, then we are not in agreement.

Backing up PR's point, look at the 2012 roster changes for starters:

QB changed from SSH/McKinney to JJ
RB changed from Moore/Nguyen/Canada to Canada/Van
LG changed from Hendrickson to Poole
TE changed from Hardy to Pierson
WR2 changed from Gratton to Jones

DE changed from Harris to Holmes
CB2 changed from Murray to Harris

Otherwise everyone else was back at the same spot, Schmaing, Oiland, Pohehls, Kistler, Henderson, Warren, Wags, Takai, Bienemann, Coyle, Tripp, Kanongata'a, Tully, Hermanson, and Goodwin.

One could argue that statistically the roster changes almost across the board equated to an upgrade.

Thanks for doing that. I would argue that rb's were a wash, as Nguyen was very good and 2d team all-conference and Moore was very good when healthy and gave us a big back. Don't know if Poole was better last year than Hendrixson as a senior. Hardy was probably better than Pierson. Gratton and Jones are different kinds of receivers. Like them both. Don't know on Harris and Holmes--trading a good senior for an underclassman. I thought Murray was pretty good, but don't know on the comparison.

Comparing stats only tells part of the story but...

2012 to 2013:

QB: 2343 yards, 16 TDs, 11 INTs in 2012 to 3387 yards, 32 TDs, 5 INTs
RB: 1139 yards and 9 TDs in 2012 to 1585 yards and 24 TDs.
TE: 273 yards 1 TD for Hardy in 2012 to 169 yards and 5 TDs for Pierson
WR: 397 yards and 1 TD for Gratton to 760 yards and 1 TD for Jones
DE: 39 tackles, 3.5 sacks, 7.5 TFL, 1 fumble for Harris in 2012 to 37 tackles, 4 sacks, 6 TFL for Holmes
CB: 50 tackles, 2 INTs, 7 passes defended for Murray to 41 tackles, 2 INTs, 14 passes defended, 1 forced fumble for Goodwin

So QB was the largest overall upgrade, RB was next. One could argue that it's hard to compare TE and WR receiving numbers due to the QB situation.

11 games to 13 games, or 18% more games in '13. Production should be higher with 18% more games.

Production is an indicator of talent but doesn't necessarily equate to talent. For example, with a good qb, a receiver will have more production, as you noted.

Don't understand how you did your '12 running back numbers. In '12, PN (926, 5.9, 5), Canada (586, 5.0, 4), and Moore (413, 5.4, 4). That's 1925 in 11 games. Plus Kirschner (126, 5.2) and Counts (84, 6.0). Compared to 1885 and 5.0 and 4.9 in '13 in 13 games, plus JN (267) and Counts (207). Looks like considerably better production in '12 than '13 to me.

Hardy played tight end his whole career and I believe was a much better blocker. More receiving yards, but less TD's.

DE production similar, but note the 18% more games in '13.

Didn't Goodwin play alot in both years? Shouldn't the comparison be from Murray to someone else, like Harris?

 

[garizzalies]

Smfh. Let me try it this way. What do you guys believe saw a bigger improvement from 12 to 13: the team's overall level of talent or the team's overall level of coaching?

 

[garizzalies]

I could make the argument the coaching actually decreased. Exhibit A: the CC game. If you can't get the boys ready to play a PO game in the cold, what can you do?

Well they learned how to keep track of the down and number of TOs and they eliminated the bone-headed gramma plays like the kick 2.0, super secret punt returns to PFN, and project shay vs kitty.

That's kinda like going from -1 to 0. Not really an improvement in my mind. Plus they returned to the stone age (eliminated spread) and now wanna run booby ball with a new line, scatty backs, and no proven TE

Thank god we have JJ. We should call the offense "max protect"