Missoula Rises is giving Griz Nation a chance to submit some questions

[PDXGrizzly]

So what I want to know is when the Missoula Rises people bring up Jordy Johnson who is going to cut them off at the knees.

His rape trial keeps being brought up by these people and they always fail to mention that he was found not guilty by all the jurors in about 15 minutes. If anything he was the victim in the thing and apparently got some kink of settlement from the University for the way Engstom handled it and probably should have sued the county attorney, the Missoulian, our favorite reporter and especially his false accuser on top of that.

That was some real preferential treatment given to a Griz football player right there folks.

Easy. “Mr. Johnson was not recruited by Bobby Hauck nor was he coached by him. He was found not guilty in a court of law with much greater investigative power than the University. Given past legal action, it would be unwise to comment further.”

What people are failing to realize is that “cutting them off at the knees” only perpetuates the issues and paints the University in a negative light. Even if you have all the facts on your side, you can’t be on the wrong side of the conversation and the #metoo movement. Cutting off anyone at the knees does this regardless of fact. All you can do is give correct facts in a diplomatic and patient way. This will get repeated time and time again until 1) everyone gets it or 2) most everyone moves on. If you don’t, then no one will move on or get it.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I’m no Haslam apologist, but do believe he played this as well as could be expected given the circumstances.

One party, the nine year old with his own website, further empowered the agenda-driven, concerned citizen who was yelling “rape culture” at anyone who would listen. “Cutting her off at the knees” was never an option for him, or anyone else paying attention. He did the right thing by condemning a personal attack that included a home address & a lot of crap that you could have expected given the source.

If he, Seth, Bobby & the U are going to effectively deal with Lisa Davey & her supporters, it needs to be a fact-filled, emotion-less recount of the facts laced with we’re sorry that this is how you feel but that it doesn’t exactly square with those facts. & that while there have been unfortunate incidents @ the U, it is now currently acknowledged as being one of the “gold standard” institutions in terms of dealing with the issues Lisa so deeply cares about. Cutting her off... while perhaps temporarily satisfying, won’t be as effective as holding her up to the light for all to see. She’ll likely still have her supporters, but will have also helped to cement support for those of us who don’t think she’s quite genuine.

Then they can get this back into the 24 hour news loop, put some healing distance back on this & get on to the business of running their respective businesses.

wouldn't that have cut her off? showing the fallacy of her argument to the world? Instead he chose a different path that has led us here.

 

[AZGrizFan]

More and more I think about this. Haslam has no spine. He’s not a leader. Look how’s he’s handled other issues? He’s no different than Engstrom. Such a chicken shit weasel..

Yep. Haslam has failed.

I'm generally a Haslam supporter, and I think he's done a superb job at many, many things, but I think he failed mightily at the onset of this issue. First in not predicting this type of a misguided witch hunt and being prepared for it and secondly in not slapping down Davey with her personal, slanderous attack on his new coaching hire that was full of lies and half-truths. I blame him for this thing having ANY legs at this point. He could have cut her off at the knees that day (like he did Alpha), but he chose not to and legitimized her lies. And actually, HAD he cut her off at the knees there in all likelihood would have BEEN NO response from those like Alpha. But he didn't, so here we are. We are left with Haslam, Hauck and Bodnar tied to the stake in front of what will NOT be a kind, forgiving, supportive crowd.

This should go well. :roll: :roll:

AG1s stupidity happened before the press conference. Had Haslam publicly called out Davey and cut her off at the knees, it would have been WAAAAY worse. Haslam was placed in a no-win situation. Had he publicly called out both, many in the left would have seen it as a repudiation of women and being insensitive to the plight of women in Missoula, thus reinforcing the notion of athletic department complicity in sexual harassment, rape, and general lawlessness. This makes his job, Bodnar’s job, and Hauck’s job much harder with less community goodwill.

The person responsible for giving this legs is AG1. Even though Davey’s petition was full of lies and misinformation (not to mention that doctored cover), AG1 gave Davey bonna fide victim status and, in her’s and many other’s minds, substantiated her claims.

Going after her at all after what AG1 did will only strengthen her cause. Even with what she is saying being patently false.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that last part. I'm not say attack the CONCEPT. I'm saying he should have called her out on her lies and half truths....If she's going to build a case, it shouldn't be a house of cards. Her entire premise is based off of misinformation, third/forth hand information, or flat out false information. Coddling her did zero good, IMHO. But what do I know, I've only run two companies.

 

[PDXGrizzly]

Yep. Haslam has failed.

I'm generally a Haslam supporter, and I think he's done a superb job at many, many things, but I think he failed mightily at the onset of this issue. First in not predicting this type of a misguided witch hunt and being prepared for it and secondly in not slapping down Davey with her personal, slanderous attack on his new coaching hire that was full of lies and half-truths. I blame him for this thing having ANY legs at this point. He could have cut her off at the knees that day (like he did Alpha), but he chose not to and legitimized her lies. And actually, HAD he cut her off at the knees there in all likelihood would have BEEN NO response from those like Alpha. But he didn't, so here we are. We are left with Haslam, Hauck and Bodnar tied to the stake in front of what will NOT be a kind, forgiving, supportive crowd.

This should go well. :roll: :roll:

AG1s stupidity happened before the press conference. Had Haslam publicly called out Davey and cut her off at the knees, it would have been WAAAAY worse. Haslam was placed in a no-win situation. Had he publicly called out both, many in the left would have seen it as a repudiation of women and being insensitive to the plight of women in Missoula, thus reinforcing the notion of athletic department complicity in sexual harassment, rape, and general lawlessness. This makes his job, Bodnar’s job, and Hauck’s job much harder with less community goodwill.

The person responsible for giving this legs is AG1. Even though Davey’s petition was full of lies and misinformation (not to mention that doctored cover), AG1 gave Davey bonna fide victim status and, in her’s and many other’s minds, substantiated her claims.

Going after her at all after what AG1 did will only strengthen her cause. Even with what she is saying being patently false.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that last part. I'm not say attack the CONCEPT. I'm saying he should have called her out on her lies and half truths....If she's going to build a case, it shouldn't be a house of cards. Her entire premise is based off of misinformation, third/forth hand information, or flat out false information. Coddling her did zero good, IMHO. But what do I know, I've only run two companies.

What I was saying was that Haslam actions didn’t happen in a vacuum. Davey’s petition and imagery were given legitimacy by AG1’s antics. Had he not done what he did, Haslam could very well have countered her statements with facts publicly and been fine. As is, he couldn’t. It’s not business, it’s politics.

 

[behappp]

Question from a female Grizzly Football fan and eGriz poster:
I had many issues in the past and present with the same man who bullied Ms. Davey for her anti-Hauck petition. Included were countless sexist comments, name-calling, personal attacks and extreme crudeness. I think he is cruel, manipulative and malicious. I spoke out in favor of hiring Bobby Hauck and believe that it is unfair to blame him for some of the specifics in Ms. Davey’s petition. I support Lisa’s right to her opinion, despite the fact that it is different than mine.
How do the anti-Hauck people feel about the fact that a man sent me Facebook messages after I voiced my support for Hauck, accusing me of victimizing Lisa? He accused me of being an ally of the man who bullied Lisa, of bullying her personally. He threatened to call my employer and jeopardize my job. He threatened to turn Missoula Rises against me. The only thing he knew about me at that point was that I volunteer as a victims’ advocate and that I support Bobby Hauck. What are your thoughts about that?

Good first question

 

[AZGrizFan]

What I was saying was that Haslam actions didn’t happen in a vacuum. Davey’s petition and imagery were given legitimacy by AG1’s antics. Had he not done what he did, Haslam could very well have countered her statements with facts publicly and been fine. As is, he couldn’t. It’s not business, it’s politics.

Fair enough. And because Alpha did what he did, we'll never know what would have/could have been said in addressing her claims.

 

[bgbigdog]

I’m no Haslam apologist, but do believe he played this as well as could be expected given the circumstances.

One party, the nine year old with his own website, further empowered the agenda-driven, concerned citizen who was yelling “rape culture” at anyone who would listen. “Cutting her off at the knees” was never an option for him, or anyone else paying attention. He did the right thing by condemning a personal attack that included a home address & a lot of crap that you could have expected given the source.

If he, Seth, Bobby & the U are going to effectively deal with Lisa Davey & her supporters, it needs to be a fact-filled, emotion-less recount of the facts laced with we’re sorry that this is how you feel but that it doesn’t exactly square with those facts. & that while there have been unfortunate incidents @ the U, it is now currently acknowledged as being one of the “gold standard” institutions in terms of dealing with the issues Lisa so deeply cares about. Cutting her off... while perhaps temporarily satisfying, won’t be as effective as holding her up to the light for all to see. She’ll likely still have her supporters, but will have also helped to cement support for those of us who don’t think she’s quite genuine.

Then they can get this back into the 24 hour news loop, put some healing distance back on this & get on to the business of running their respective businesses.

wouldn't that have cut her off? showing the fallacy of her argument to the world? Instead he chose a different path that has led us here.

Cuts her off from nothing. Her supporters aren’t going to change their minds, regardless of the facts of the discussion. Sound familiar? It’s the same as any other polarized conversation in this country today. All this forum does is to give the topic the promised “airing” that Haslam et.al., committed to & because there’s no legal action, once they turn out the lights @ the auditorium, each side claims a victory & we move on to talking about something else.

Holding her up to the light of day would provide those not in either camp right now with the ability to make up their minds and “poll” one way or the other. My hope is that the light of day holds up an agenda that had holes in it from the jump. But don’t kid yourself. Even if there were pictures & audio contradicting her story, it’s gonna be Royce & Obama’s fault.

Take your turn telling your side of the story, but don’t attack the citizen. Nobody, not particularly an organization, ever really wins doing that. Who am I kidding, not about “winning” anymore. It’s about doing your best in minimizing the damage already incurred.

 

[#15 Fan]

The tail sure seems to be wagging the dog.

We seem to have two minority groups here that collectively probably make up no more than 15% of the general population that have created this monstrosity. I’m all for public debate but please consider how this all started and who started it.

The extremes of both groups, the Mikes and the Lisas, have used particularily crude words and messaging in this debate to incite their own and the other’s small but pationate bases. Lisa with her unfair and over the top faux book cover and Mike with his mysoginist rantings. The truly ironic piece is that both extreme ends of this bell curve here share so much in common. Both crave the attention of others, good or bad, and will go to extremes to garner that attention “for the cause.” Both also view themselves as victims and the other side as bullies. In a word, they are zealots.

So in the context of the ongoing cultural wars and strengthened by media attention and their own self-aggrandizing online polls, both groups have gained a following that has elevated this to a community-wide debate with the participation of a universty president.

Aside from the attention seeking of the zealots, Is there really that much to discuss here? The vast majority in the middle want to reduce sexual violence and want a UM football team that they can be proud of, on and off the field. Regardless of how you feel about Bobby Hauck, he will be the football coach.

What’s left? The zealots casting aspersions to each other so they can “convince” the other side that they are right? In the end, not changing one of the other zealots POV but walking away feeling better about themselves because they’re not one of those people.

The university has more pressing issues to deal with.

Missoula and Missoula Rises has more pressing issues to deal with (e.g. affordable housing, homelessness, opioid crisis).

As far as the Mikes and Lisas, who wants to spend time with intolerant self-absorbed bomb throwing zealots that taunt and bully others that don’t agree with them? In a word, assholes.

I apologize for the length of this post. If anyone needs me, I’ll be in the kinder and gentler Basketball forum.

This is arguably the most well-written, objective view on this entire situation. This should be submitted to the editorials of the Missoulian. I know it probably doesn't fall under the qualifications, but this could easily be a POTY. Nice work, Ursa!

 

[Glendivegriz]

Going back to AZ's point, I would urge all, including Haslam to start clicking the links and reading what groups are affiliated or related to Missoula Rises. There is some very instructive resources on some of them as to agendas, methods and funding. I would think that if Haslam feels the need to address this issue again, it would be better served on his own turf and terms.

 

[AZGrizFan]

All this forum does is to give the topic the promised “airing” that Haslam et.al., committed to & because there’s no legal action, once they turn out the lights @ the auditorium, each side claims a victory & we move on to talking about something else.

Wanna bet?

 

[BWahlberg]

So what I want to know is when the Missoula Rises people bring up Jordy Johnson who is going to cut them off at the knees.

His rape trial keeps being brought up by these people and they always fail to mention that he was found not guilty by all the jurors in about 15 minutes. If anything he was the victim in the thing and apparently got some kink of settlement from the University for the way Engstom handled it and probably should have sued the county attorney, the Missoulian, our favorite reporter and especially his false accuser on top of that.

That was some real preferential treatment given to a Griz football player right there folks.

Easy. “Mr. Johnson was not recruited by Bobby Hauck nor was he coached by him. He was found not guilty in a court of law with much greater investigative power than the University. Given past legal action, it would be unwise to comment further.”

What people are failing to realize is that “cutting them off at the knees” only perpetuates the issues and paints the University in a negative light. Even if you have all the facts on your side, you can’t be on the wrong side of the conversation and the #metoo movement. Cutting off anyone at the knees does this regardless of fact. All you can do is give correct facts in a diplomatic and patient way. This will get repeated time and time again until 1) everyone gets it or 2) most everyone moves on. If you don’t, then no one will move on or get it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Griz#64]

Horse Manure

 

[Spanky]

Yep. Haslam has failed.

I'm generally a Haslam supporter, and I think he's done a superb job at many, many things, but I think he failed mightily at the onset of this issue. First in not predicting this type of a misguided witch hunt and being prepared for it and secondly in not slapping down Davey with her personal, slanderous attack on his new coaching hire that was full of lies and half-truths. I blame him for this thing having ANY legs at this point. He could have cut her off at the knees that day (like he did Alpha), but he chose not to and legitimized her lies. And actually, HAD he cut her off at the knees there in all likelihood would have BEEN NO response from those like Alpha. But he didn't, so here we are. We are left with Haslam, Hauck and Bodnar tied to the stake in front of what will NOT be a kind, forgiving, supportive crowd.

This should go well. :roll: :roll:

AG1s stupidity happened before the press conference. Had Haslam publicly called out Davey and cut her off at the knees, it would have been WAAAAY worse. Haslam was placed in a no-win situation. Had he publicly called out both, many in the left would have seen it as a repudiation of women and being insensitive to the plight of women in Missoula, thus reinforcing the notion of athletic department complicity in sexual harassment, rape, and general lawlessness. This makes his job, Bodnar’s job, and Hauck’s job much harder with less community goodwill.

The person responsible for giving this legs is AG1. Even though Davey’s petition was full of lies and misinformation (not to mention that doctored cover), AG1 gave Davey bonna fide victim status and, in her’s and many other’s minds, substantiated her claims.

Going after her at all after what AG1 did will only strengthen her cause. Even with what she is saying being patently false.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that last part. I'm not say attack the CONCEPT. I'm saying he should have called her out on her lies and half truths....If she's going to build a case, it shouldn't be a house of cards. Her entire premise is based off of misinformation, third/forth hand information, or flat out false information. Coddling her did zero good, IMHO. But what do I know, I've only run two companies.

If you didn’t own them, it doesn’t count

 

[84GRIZ]

So what I want to know is when the Missoula Rises people bring up Jordy Johnson who is going to cut them off at the knees.

His rape trial keeps being brought up by these people and they always fail to mention that he was found not guilty by all the jurors in about 15 minutes. If anything he was the victim in the thing and apparently got some kink of settlement from the University for the way Engstom handled it and probably should have sued the county attorney, the Missoulian, our favorite reporter and especially his false accuser on top of that.

That was some real preferential treatment given to a Griz football player right there folks.

Easy. “Mr. Johnson was not recruited by Bobby Hauck nor was he coached by him. He was found not guilty in a court of law with much greater investigative power than the University. Given past legal action, it would be unwise to comment further.”

What people are failing to realize is that “cutting them off at the knees” only perpetuates the issues and paints the University in a negative light. Even if you have all the facts on your side, you can’t be on the wrong side of the conversation and the #metoo movement. Cutting off anyone at the knees does this regardless of fact. All you can do is give correct facts in a diplomatic and patient way. This will get repeated time and time again until 1) everyone gets it or 2) most everyone moves on. If you don’t, then no one will move on or get it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Right, so please tell me how well that strategy (let's call it the Engstrom plan) has worked over the last five years?????

 

[PlayerRep]

So what I want to know is when the Missoula Rises people bring up Jordy Johnson who is going to cut them off at the knees.

His rape trial keeps being brought up by these people and they always fail to mention that he was found not guilty by all the jurors in about 15 minutes. If anything he was the victim in the thing and apparently got some kink of settlement from the University for the way Engstom handled it and probably should have sued the county attorney, the Missoulian, our favorite reporter and especially his false accuser on top of that.

That was some real preferential treatment given to a Griz football player right there folks.

Easy. “Mr. Johnson was not recruited by Bobby Hauck nor was he coached by him. He was found not guilty in a court of law with much greater investigative power than the University. Given past legal action, it would be unwise to comment further.”

What people are failing to realize is that “cutting them off at the knees” only perpetuates the issues and paints the University in a negative light. Even if you have all the facts on your side, you can’t be on the wrong side of the conversation and the #metoo movement. Cutting off anyone at the knees does this regardless of fact. All you can do is give correct facts in a diplomatic and patient way. This will get repeated time and time again until 1) everyone gets it or 2) most everyone moves on. If you don’t, then no one will move on or get it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Right, so please tell me how well that strategy (let's call it the Engstrom plan) has worked over the last five years?????

Yes, the strategy of appeasement and never pushing back or defending or setting the record straight at all. Arguably, it resulted in the Krakauer book.

 

[griz5700]

More and more I think about this. Haslam has no spine. He’s not a leader. Look how’s he’s handled other issues? He’s no different than Engstrom. Such a chicken shit weasel..

He should have been fired along with Stitt.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that last part. I'm not say attack the CONCEPT. I'm saying he should have called her out on her lies and half truths....If she's going to build a case, it shouldn't be a house of cards. Her entire premise is based off of misinformation, third/forth hand information, or flat out false information. Coddling her did zero good, IMHO. But what do I know, I've only run two companies.

If you didn’t own them, it doesn’t count

But even if I owned them I didn't build them, according to some. :lol: :lol:

 

[AZGrizFan]

Easy. “Mr. Johnson was not recruited by Bobby Hauck nor was he coached by him. He was found not guilty in a court of law with much greater investigative power than the University. Given past legal action, it would be unwise to comment further.”

What people are failing to realize is that “cutting them off at the knees” only perpetuates the issues and paints the University in a negative light. Even if you have all the facts on your side, you can’t be on the wrong side of the conversation and the #metoo movement. Cutting off anyone at the knees does this regardless of fact. All you can do is give correct facts in a diplomatic and patient way. This will get repeated time and time again until 1) everyone gets it or 2) most everyone moves on. If you don’t, then no one will move on or get it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Right, so please tell me how well that strategy (let's call it the Engstrom plan) has worked over the last five years?????

Yes, the strategy of appeasement and never pushing back or defending or setting the record straight at all. Arguably, it resulted in the Krakauer book.

I don't even think its arguable at this point.

 

[Glendivegriz]

Anyone who thinks this will be a discussion is naïve.

 

[PDXGrizzly]

So what I want to know is when the Missoula Rises people bring up Jordy Johnson who is going to cut them off at the knees.

His rape trial keeps being brought up by these people and they always fail to mention that he was found not guilty by all the jurors in about 15 minutes. If anything he was the victim in the thing and apparently got some kink of settlement from the University for the way Engstom handled it and probably should have sued the county attorney, the Missoulian, our favorite reporter and especially his false accuser on top of that.

That was some real preferential treatment given to a Griz football player right there folks.

Easy. “Mr. Johnson was not recruited by Bobby Hauck nor was he coached by him. He was found not guilty in a court of law with much greater investigative power than the University. Given past legal action, it would be unwise to comment further.”

What people are failing to realize is that “cutting them off at the knees” only perpetuates the issues and paints the University in a negative light. Even if you have all the facts on your side, you can’t be on the wrong side of the conversation and the #metoo movement. Cutting off anyone at the knees does this regardless of fact. All you can do is give correct facts in a diplomatic and patient way. This will get repeated time and time again until 1) everyone gets it or 2) most everyone moves on. If you don’t, then no one will move on or get it.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Right, so please tell me how well that strategy (let's call it the Engstrom plan) has worked over the last five years?????

That’s not the strategy that was employed. Engstrom had his head in the sand and prayed it would all just go away. In fact, he was responsible for perpetuating a lot of the negative crap that the University and community has been dealing with over the last few years. The overreaction with the NCAA, the firing of both the athletic director and the football coach without explanation, the mismanagement of the JJ situation, the Saudi student, all created the issues we have currently. Engstrom and the admin weren’t combating untruth with facts, they were actively creating their own and perpetuating the myth about how “dangerous” the football team is. When things died down here is what he didn’t do:

1) engage the community to try and bridge the gaps that had formed.

2) Publicly explain his actions in regards to Pflugrad and O’Day

3) Engage Griz Nation to bring the disaffected (on both sides) back

This giant mess is mostly Engstrom’s creation (and some followers on, such as two “journalists”). This is just the first step. However, as you have pointed out, this really is a wicked problem.