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Returning to an elite FCS program

'68griz said:
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.
I'm not sure RE wanted to "destroy" Griz football, but I definitely believe that he didn't give a rat's ass what happened to it. If he had truly cared, Pflugrad and O'Day would still be here. JMHO.


And that's the key point, 68. It's your opinion that that is the case. Engstrom made a decision at that time which was largely unpopular, but one that in his mind was best for the program and for the University. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the program. If you believe he truly doesn't care, schedule a meeting with him and ask him. Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

It's my opinion that Engstrom cares far, far more about athletics than Dennison ever did. Dennison cared about the revenue. Engstrom cares about athletics and the student athlete experience. And I think we're beginning to see that pay dividends with the athletic building taking place.
 
AZGrizFan said:
There's a difference between being an elite "program" and being an elite "team". We may not currently have an elite "team", but Montana most definitely continues to be an elite "program".

Signed,

The Westboro Wing

Good post.
 
MiningCityGrizFan said:
Before Montana can return to the elite level of FCS it must first acknowledge that it is no longer an elite program and then begin working to understand why.

But first we must prep that guy…

You know the guy. He thinks he is part of the team. He talks about the Griz using the term “we” and “us”. Basically he considers himself to have some special quality or relationship to the program that makes him special and that sets him apart from other, lesser Griz fans.

That guy has something in his personality that makes Griz football a little too personal. Like a stalker who sincerely believes Jennifer Anniston really loves him…

Griz Nation is his religion. Washington-Grizzly is his church…

That’s actually a bad analogy, think less church and more cult.

You know the guy. We all know the guy…

Blind Devotion – (Reality + Logic) = That Guy

That guy still believes Montana is an elite FCS program. Saying otherwise proves you’re not a “real fan”.

That guy hates to hear anything critical said of the program, so I fully expect the Westboro wing of Griz Nation to declare a football fatwa after this post…

The Griz are not an elite FCS football team at this point in time.

tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg


The Griz used to be an elite FCS football team, very recently too.

The Griz could be an elite FCS football team again fairly soon.

Right now though, at this point in time, they’re not.

STOP!

Don’t be that guy. Just keep reading…

Remember all of the stats Griz fans could throw out when debating with people (Cat fans) about Griz football? Remember all of the amazing records for consecutive playoff appearances, consecutive wins over the Cats, consecutive conference titles, and consecutive non-losing seasons.

All of those are in the past. Now look at where we are today…

The Griz have not won a playoff game since 2011 and the NCAA says that no longer counts.
So technically the last playoff game the Griz won was against App. State in 2009.

The same goes for winning a Big Sky title. 2009.

Another way to put the decline in perspective… Jordan Tripp was a true freshman in 2009. He was the last Griz player on the roster to have played in and FCS national championship game.

So that makes this the first year since 1995 the Griz do not have a player on their roster who has played in an FCS national championship game.

That’s f*****g remarkable. It shows how long Griz Football had been an elite FCS team.

Key words – had been

So let’s all take a deep breath and face reality…The Griz program is no longer an elite FCS program.

This could devolve into a debate about what it truly means to be elite, but I don’t want to go there…

Instead I’d like to start looking at what’s keeping them from being elite.

Reason #1 – Royce Engsrom

The Griz could return to the elite status within the next 3 to 5 years, but I but don’t believe being an elite program is a priority for the current UM leadership, especially Royce Engstrom. If it had been, he wouldn’t have fired Pflugrad and one of the most respected FCS athletic directors in the country.

Make no mistake about it, Royce wanted to blow up the ship that is the Griz football program. Thanks to Mick Delany and the current staff, he didn’t succeed. However, he did effectively kill the program’s momentum that was started under Read when he fired Pflugrad.

Delany has done a superb job plugging the holes and keeping the ship from sinking, but the ship has slowed and we’re falling behind teams like EWU and, yes, MSU in the Big Sky and teams like NDSU nationally.

So it’s an unfortunate irony that the same guys who minimized the damage of Royce’s attack and kept the ship from sinking don’t have the ability to build momentum on their own.

They are personable guys. High-character guys. They are the guys who this program needed the last three years. However, they are not the guys that will get this program back to an elite level.

Bring the hate…

Reason #2 – The Coaching Staff

Again, I’m not saying they are bad guys. On the contrary. From all accounts they are great guys. Most have significant connections to Montana’s glory days, which is both a blessing and a curse – more on that in a moment.

However, they are all career long position coaches for the most part. The Griz don’t have strong coordinators. Not on offense, on defense, or on special teams.

Prior to being tapped for the HC spot at Montana Mick’s only previous HC experiences was with Great Falls High (’74-’77) and Western Montana (’91-’92).

Offensively there are actually two coordinators; Scott Gragg and Kefense Hynson.

Gragg is a former Griz o-linemen who had a very good professional career in the NFL. He was the head coach of his high school for four years before coming back to Missoula. He’s been TE coach and O-line coach, but was tapped as co-offensive coordinator and assistant head coach.

Hyson – He did have two years of OC experience at Western Washington in ’07 and ’08. He left that to become receivers coach at Yale before coming to UM in 2012. He was named co-offensive coordinator after Rosenbach basically quit on the Griz.

Side note: What are the odds when Delany steps down, Engstrom steps in and makes it so Gragg becomes HC, Hyson OC, and Gregorak DC? All in the name of continuity and tradition?

Defensively there is Gregorak – By all accounts a great guy. He’s been with the program a long time, but would have gone with Hauck to UNLV. In fact he did go to UNLV, but then got into trouble. Had he gone, he would have most likely still be a position coach at UNLV.

He became coordinator only after Breske left for WSU after the 2011 season. The chaos of 2012 and the NCAA cloud hanging over the program most likely made it difficult UM to bring in a new DC. To be fair, Gregorak deserved a shot at the job.

I just don’t think he’s done that good of a job as DC. I think the ridiculous talent he’s had covered for the relatively weak schemes. Good coaches exploit weak schemes - think Coastal Carolina...

Considering all of the turmoil in 2012 I’m grateful as a fan for what these guys did. Besides providing stability to the program and minimizing the damage of Engstrom’s decision, I think their biggest contributions has come on the recruiting trail.

They have done an exceptional job bringing quality kids into the program, which is a huge part of what great position coaches do - they recruit! Make no mistake about it, these guys are great position coaches.

That being said, taking the emotion out of the discussion, does anyone truly believe that these men would be in the same leadership roles at any other FCS or FBS school?

If not for their history with the school and the circumstances of 2012, does anyone think they we even would be the HC, OC, and DC at UM?

I think the answer is no.

So if Montana wants to get back to being an elite FCS program, then it’s going to have to start with addressing the talent gaps on the coaching staff.

How to handle that elegantly, showing them the appreciation and respect for what they’ve contributed to the program, while potentially showing some of them the door, is no easy task.

Reason #3 – Montana Only Hires Montana

However, it can be done. Look no further than Montana State. When it came time to cut ties with the previous coaching staff and start fresh, they didn’t confine their search to the MSU campus or Bobcat Alumni.

Rob Ash was not a guy with MSU history prior to 2007. The same can be said for most of his staff. Look at their current OC or the previous ones Ash has had to replace during his tenure.

Those were not guys with Bobcat connections. They were the most talented and accomplished coaches and that’s why they were hired.

Montana doesn’t seem to do that. They instead look for first and foremost with a guy who has some previous connection to Montana. Then they put the illusion of a national search before they end up hiring the less qualified, less accomplished guy with ties to Montana.

The last Griz coach that took the helm with no prior Griz connection was Don Read. That turned out okay. Dennehy, Glenn, and Hauck all did very well too and moved on to bigger schools.

So it’s a formula/philosophy that worked. In fact it was working. I think the program was right back in the elite category with Pflugrad in 2011, but Engstrom destroyed the elite status of the program and corrupted the formula.

I think Pflugrad was the absolute ideal candidate for Montana HC. He had the Montana connection, coaching with Read, leaving for the PAC-10 and then coming back to Montana in 2009 in Hauck’s last year. True he didn’t have previous coordinator experience, but it’s not because he didn’t have the talent.

He made different career decisions for his family that kept him from going to schools like Alabama. Montana was a perfect fit for him. He was later in his life and wasn’t in a position to chase a bigger contract somewhere else. Montana was his dream job and I think he would have stayed here a very, very long time.

He also had developed strong connections in the coaching community that would have enabled him to bring in high-quality coaches on his staff to replace the guys like Breske who would inevitably leave for more money.

If you think back to the 2011 offense and what JJ was doing as a sophomore in that offense. What Breske or a new experienced DC could have done with Tripp and Coyle…

The Griz could have been the Ducks of the FCS, right down to the alumni at Nike. I believe the program was poised to do what NDSU has done the last several years. I really do, which is why Engstrom’s decision to fire Phlu and O’Day was so devastating.

But I digress…

I would hope though at this point in time that Montana finally goes outside and looks to start fresh rather than promoting Gragg to head coach and dropping the ‘co’ from Hyson’s title. If that happens it will be done in the name of continuity. I also believe it will set the program back another 2 to 5 years when it comes to getting back to being an elite team.

I think Montana needs to look for the next Don Read. Bring in someone that’s ready to define the program for the next 20 years rather than remind everyone how good the Griz were during the past 20 years, similar to what Ash is doing in Bozeman.

Could you imagine what kinds of numbers JJ, Van, Canada, Ellis, Jones, and the gang could have been putting up the last few years if UM hadn’t gone away from the Oregon style spread offense that UM was running in 2011?

Instead they've reverted back to the vanilla, pro-style offense that could not be described as elite. Solid? Yes. Well balanced? Yes. Elite? Nope.

A QB who put up 800+ yards of offense and has thrown or passed for 14 touchdown in two games is elite. Those are truly elite numbers that get guys recognized nationally. It’s ironic/disappointing that Prukop was added to the Payton watch list the same week JJ was taken off. I get the sense that one program is trending up, while the other one is trending down...

In Conclusion...

To conclude, Montana is no longer among the elite FCS programs because of the decisions Royce Engstrom has made. Mick and his staff have done an admirable job the last few years. They minimized the damage of Engstrom intentionally inflicted on the program. However, the circumstances that required Mick and the rest of the Montana legacy guys to lead this program are now solidly in the past. The time has come to bring in new leadership that is more qualified to return the program to the elite FCS level. However, they must continue to be high-quality, high-integrity guys like the current staff.

That’s definitely an area that’s not been lacking with the current staff.

Your new Egriz name is the Voice of Reason. This is the same things I hear from "real fans" outside of Egriz. Thank you, and I applaud your willingness to step away from the Group Thinking here. Common Sense is alive.
 
EverettGriz said:
'68griz said:
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.
I'm not sure RE wanted to "destroy" Griz football, but I definitely believe that he didn't give a rat's ass what happened to it. If he had truly cared, Pflugrad and O'Day would still be here. JMHO.


And that's the key point, 68. It's your opinion that that is the case. Engstrom made a decision at that time which was largely unpopular, but one that in his mind was best for the program and for the University. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the program. If you believe he truly doesn't care, schedule a meeting with him and ask him. Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

It's my opinion that Engstrom cares far, far more about athletics than Dennison ever did. Dennison cared about the revenue. Engstrom cares about athletics and the student athlete experience. And I think we're beginning to see that pay dividends with the athletic building taking place.

You are wrong, but that is par for the course with you. Dennison was a HUGE Griz fan, as well as a huge sports fan in general. His son was an NFL coach, and George himself was a great athlete in his younger days. Engstrom is an academician (chemistry major), whose priorities are education. While there is nothing wrong with that, just don't make the incorrect statement that Royce cares more about our athletics than George did.
 
MiningCityGrizFan said:
Before Montana can return to the elite level of FCS it must first acknowledge that it is no longer an elite program and then begin working to understand why.

But first we must prep that guy…

You know the guy. He thinks he is part of the team. He talks about the Griz using the term “we” and “us”. Basically he considers himself to have some special quality or relationship to the program that makes him special and that sets him apart from other, lesser Griz fans.

That guy has something in his personality that makes Griz football a little too personal. Like a stalker who sincerely believes Jennifer Anniston really loves him…

Griz Nation is his religion. Washington-Grizzly is his church…

That’s actually a bad analogy, think less church and more cult.

You know the guy. We all know the guy…

Blind Devotion – (Reality + Logic) = That Guy

That guy still believes Montana is an elite FCS program. Saying otherwise proves you’re not a “real fan”.

That guy hates to hear anything critical said of the program, so I fully expect the Westboro wing of Griz Nation to declare a football fatwa after this post…

The Griz are not an elite FCS football team at this point in time.

tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg


The Griz used to be an elite FCS football team, very recently too.

The Griz could be an elite FCS football team again fairly soon.

Right now though, at this point in time, they’re not.

STOP!

Don’t be that guy. Just keep reading…

Remember all of the stats Griz fans could throw out when debating with people (Cat fans) about Griz football? Remember all of the amazing records for consecutive playoff appearances, consecutive wins over the Cats, consecutive conference titles, and consecutive non-losing seasons.

All of those are in the past. Now look at where we are today…

The Griz have not won a playoff game since 2011 and the NCAA says that no longer counts.
So technically the last playoff game the Griz won was against App. State in 2009.

The same goes for winning a Big Sky title. 2009.

Another way to put the decline in perspective… Jordan Tripp was a true freshman in 2009. He was the last Griz player on the roster to have played in and FCS national championship game.

So that makes this the first year since 1995 the Griz do not have a player on their roster who has played in an FCS national championship game.

That’s f*****g remarkable. It shows how long Griz Football had been an elite FCS team.

Key words – had been

So let’s all take a deep breath and face reality…The Griz program is no longer an elite FCS program.

This could devolve into a debate about what it truly means to be elite, but I don’t want to go there…

Instead I’d like to start looking at what’s keeping them from being elite.

Reason #1 – Royce Engsrom

The Griz could return to the elite status within the next 3 to 5 years, but I but don’t believe being an elite program is a priority for the current UM leadership, especially Royce Engstrom. If it had been, he wouldn’t have fired Pflugrad and one of the most respected FCS athletic directors in the country.

Make no mistake about it, Royce wanted to blow up the ship that is the Griz football program. Thanks to Mick Delany and the current staff, he didn’t succeed. However, he did effectively kill the program’s momentum that was started under Read when he fired Pflugrad.

Delany has done a superb job plugging the holes and keeping the ship from sinking, but the ship has slowed and we’re falling behind teams like EWU and, yes, MSU in the Big Sky and teams like NDSU nationally.

So it’s an unfortunate irony that the same guys who minimized the damage of Royce’s attack and kept the ship from sinking don’t have the ability to build momentum on their own.

They are personable guys. High-character guys. They are the guys who this program needed the last three years. However, they are not the guys that will get this program back to an elite level.

Bring the hate…

Reason #2 – The Coaching Staff

Again, I’m not saying they are bad guys. On the contrary. From all accounts they are great guys. Most have significant connections to Montana’s glory days, which is both a blessing and a curse – more on that in a moment.

However, they are all career long position coaches for the most part. The Griz don’t have strong coordinators. Not on offense, on defense, or on special teams.

Prior to being tapped for the HC spot at Montana Mick’s only previous HC experiences was with Great Falls High (’74-’77) and Western Montana (’91-’92).

Offensively there are actually two coordinators; Scott Gragg and Kefense Hynson.

Gragg is a former Griz o-linemen who had a very good professional career in the NFL. He was the head coach of his high school for four years before coming back to Missoula. He’s been TE coach and O-line coach, but was tapped as co-offensive coordinator and assistant head coach.

Hyson – He did have two years of OC experience at Western Washington in ’07 and ’08. He left that to become receivers coach at Yale before coming to UM in 2012. He was named co-offensive coordinator after Rosenbach basically quit on the Griz.

Side note: What are the odds when Delany steps down, Engstrom steps in and makes it so Gragg becomes HC, Hyson OC, and Gregorak DC? All in the name of continuity and tradition?

Defensively there is Gregorak – By all accounts a great guy. He’s been with the program a long time, but would have gone with Hauck to UNLV. In fact he did go to UNLV, but then got into trouble. Had he gone, he would have most likely still be a position coach at UNLV.

He became coordinator only after Breske left for WSU after the 2011 season. The chaos of 2012 and the NCAA cloud hanging over the program most likely made it difficult UM to bring in a new DC. To be fair, Gregorak deserved a shot at the job.

I just don’t think he’s done that good of a job as DC. I think the ridiculous talent he’s had covered for the relatively weak schemes. Good coaches exploit weak schemes - think Coastal Carolina...

Considering all of the turmoil in 2012 I’m grateful as a fan for what these guys did. Besides providing stability to the program and minimizing the damage of Engstrom’s decision, I think their biggest contributions has come on the recruiting trail.

They have done an exceptional job bringing quality kids into the program, which is a huge part of what great position coaches do - they recruit! Make no mistake about it, these guys are great position coaches.

That being said, taking the emotion out of the discussion, does anyone truly believe that these men would be in the same leadership roles at any other FCS or FBS school?

If not for their history with the school and the circumstances of 2012, does anyone think they we even would be the HC, OC, and DC at UM?

I think the answer is no.

So if Montana wants to get back to being an elite FCS program, then it’s going to have to start with addressing the talent gaps on the coaching staff.

How to handle that elegantly, showing them the appreciation and respect for what they’ve contributed to the program, while potentially showing some of them the door, is no easy task.

Reason #3 – Montana Only Hires Montana

However, it can be done. Look no further than Montana State. When it came time to cut ties with the previous coaching staff and start fresh, they didn’t confine their search to the MSU campus or Bobcat Alumni.

Rob Ash was not a guy with MSU history prior to 2007. The same can be said for most of his staff. Look at their current OC or the previous ones Ash has had to replace during his tenure.

Those were not guys with Bobcat connections. They were the most talented and accomplished coaches and that’s why they were hired.

Montana doesn’t seem to do that. They instead look for first and foremost with a guy who has some previous connection to Montana. Then they put the illusion of a national search before they end up hiring the less qualified, less accomplished guy with ties to Montana.

The last Griz coach that took the helm with no prior Griz connection was Don Read. That turned out okay. Dennehy, Glenn, and Hauck all did very well too and moved on to bigger schools.

So it’s a formula/philosophy that worked. In fact it was working. I think the program was right back in the elite category with Pflugrad in 2011, but Engstrom destroyed the elite status of the program and corrupted the formula.

I think Pflugrad was the absolute ideal candidate for Montana HC. He had the Montana connection, coaching with Read, leaving for the PAC-10 and then coming back to Montana in 2009 in Hauck’s last year. True he didn’t have previous coordinator experience, but it’s not because he didn’t have the talent.

He made different career decisions for his family that kept him from going to schools like Alabama. Montana was a perfect fit for him. He was later in his life and wasn’t in a position to chase a bigger contract somewhere else. Montana was his dream job and I think he would have stayed here a very, very long time.

He also had developed strong connections in the coaching community that would have enabled him to bring in high-quality coaches on his staff to replace the guys like Breske who would inevitably leave for more money.

If you think back to the 2011 offense and what JJ was doing as a sophomore in that offense. What Breske or a new experienced DC could have done with Tripp and Coyle…

The Griz could have been the Ducks of the FCS, right down to the alumni at Nike. I believe the program was poised to do what NDSU has done the last several years. I really do, which is why Engstrom’s decision to fire Phlu and O’Day was so devastating.

But I digress…

I would hope though at this point in time that Montana finally goes outside and looks to start fresh rather than promoting Gragg to head coach and dropping the ‘co’ from Hyson’s title. If that happens it will be done in the name of continuity. I also believe it will set the program back another 2 to 5 years when it comes to getting back to being an elite team.

I think Montana needs to look for the next Don Read. Bring in someone that’s ready to define the program for the next 20 years rather than remind everyone how good the Griz were during the past 20 years, similar to what Ash is doing in Bozeman.

Could you imagine what kinds of numbers JJ, Van, Canada, Ellis, Jones, and the gang could have been putting up the last few years if UM hadn’t gone away from the Oregon style spread offense that UM was running in 2011?

Instead they've reverted back to the vanilla, pro-style offense that could not be described as elite. Solid? Yes. Well balanced? Yes. Elite? Nope.

A QB who put up 800+ yards of offense and has thrown or passed for 14 touchdown in two games is elite. Those are truly elite numbers that get guys recognized nationally. It’s ironic/disappointing that Prukop was added to the Payton watch list the same week JJ was taken off. I get the sense that one program is trending up, while the other one is trending down...

In Conclusion...

To conclude, Montana is no longer among the elite FCS programs because of the decisions Royce Engstrom has made. Mick and his staff have done an admirable job the last few years. They minimized the damage of Engstrom intentionally inflicted on the program. However, the circumstances that required Mick and the rest of the Montana legacy guys to lead this program are now solidly in the past. The time has come to bring in new leadership that is more qualified to return the program to the elite FCS level. However, they must continue to be high-quality, high-integrity guys like the current staff.

That’s definitely an area that’s not been lacking with the current staff.

This is the most well-thought-out and accurate post I have read on egriz. I agree with almost everything you said here.
 
Well, MiningCity has all of the cat trolls who are too embarrassed to admit that's what they are agreeing with him. So he's got that goin' for him....
 
EverettGriz said:
'68griz said:
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.
I'm not sure RE wanted to "destroy" Griz football, but I definitely believe that he didn't give a rat's ass what happened to it. If he had truly cared, Pflugrad and O'Day would still be here. JMHO.


And that's the key point, 68. It's your opinion that that is the case. Engstrom made a decision at that time which was largely unpopular, but one that in his mind was best for the program and for the University. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the program. If you believe he truly doesn't care, schedule a meeting with him and ask him. Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

It's my opinion that Engstrom cares far, far more about athletics than Dennison ever did. Dennison cared about the revenue. Engstrom cares about athletics and the student athlete experience. And I think we're beginning to see that pay dividends with the athletic building taking place.
I'm not going to argue wildly with you, 'cuz there's absolutely nothing to be gained from pissing matches. Just let it be said, you have your opinion; I have mine. And, they just aren't the same. Your comment about how RE "envisions the program 6-7 years from now" truly does frighten me -- I have yet to see any indication he is interested in the athletic programs at all and, from my vantage point, if he is still around then, I'm not sure UM will still have a Div. 1 football program. On that note, I will shut my mouth, and say, "peace," to you.
 
EverettGriz said:
Well, MiningCity has all of the cat trolls who are too embarrassed to admit that's what they are agreeing with him. So he's got that goin' for him....

You seem to throw the word, troll around loosely, so I thought it would be best to give you the definition. Funny, during the process, I realized the word defines who you are on Egriz.

YNzPuFj.png
 
Robsnotes4u said:
EverettGriz said:
Well, MiningCity has all of the cat trolls who are too embarrassed to admit that's what they are agreeing with him. So he's got that goin' for him....

You seem to throw the word, troll around loosely, so I thought it would be best to give you the definition. Funny, during the process, I realized the word defines who you are on Egriz.

YNzPuFj.png


EG very seldom starts an argument. When he does get involved, usually he is spot on or close to it.
 
MiningCityGrizFan said:
Before Montana can return to the elite level of FCS it must first acknowledge that it is no longer an elite program and then begin working to understand why.

But first we must prep that guy…

You know the guy. He thinks he is part of the team. He talks about the Griz using the term “we” and “us”. Basically he considers himself to have some special quality or relationship to the program that makes him special and that sets him apart from other, lesser Griz fans.

That guy has something in his personality that makes Griz football a little too personal. Like a stalker who sincerely believes Jennifer Anniston really loves him…

Griz Nation is his religion. Washington-Grizzly is his church…

That’s actually a bad analogy, think less church and more cult.

You know the guy. We all know the guy…

Blind Devotion – (Reality + Logic) = That Guy

That guy still believes Montana is an elite FCS program. Saying otherwise proves you’re not a “real fan”.

That guy hates to hear anything critical said of the program, so I fully expect the Westboro wing of Griz Nation to declare a football fatwa after this post…

The Griz are not an elite FCS football team at this point in time.

tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg


The Griz used to be an elite FCS football team, very recently too.

The Griz could be an elite FCS football team again fairly soon.

Right now though, at this point in time, they’re not.

STOP!

Don’t be that guy. Just keep reading…

Remember all of the stats Griz fans could throw out when debating with people (Cat fans) about Griz football? Remember all of the amazing records for consecutive playoff appearances, consecutive wins over the Cats, consecutive conference titles, and consecutive non-losing seasons.

All of those are in the past. Now look at where we are today…

The Griz have not won a playoff game since 2011 and the NCAA says that no longer counts.
So technically the last playoff game the Griz won was against App. State in 2009.

The same goes for winning a Big Sky title. 2009.

Another way to put the decline in perspective… Jordan Tripp was a true freshman in 2009. He was the last Griz player on the roster to have played in and FCS national championship game.

So that makes this the first year since 1995 the Griz do not have a player on their roster who has played in an FCS national championship game.

That’s f*****g remarkable. It shows how long Griz Football had been an elite FCS team.

Key words – had been

So let’s all take a deep breath and face reality…The Griz program is no longer an elite FCS program.

This could devolve into a debate about what it truly means to be elite, but I don’t want to go there…

Instead I’d like to start looking at what’s keeping them from being elite.

Reason #1 – Royce Engsrom

The Griz could return to the elite status within the next 3 to 5 years, but I but don’t believe being an elite program is a priority for the current UM leadership, especially Royce Engstrom. If it had been, he wouldn’t have fired Pflugrad and one of the most respected FCS athletic directors in the country.

Make no mistake about it, Royce wanted to blow up the ship that is the Griz football program. Thanks to Mick Delany and the current staff, he didn’t succeed. However, he did effectively kill the program’s momentum that was started under Read when he fired Pflugrad.

Delany has done a superb job plugging the holes and keeping the ship from sinking, but the ship has slowed and we’re falling behind teams like EWU and, yes, MSU in the Big Sky and teams like NDSU nationally.

So it’s an unfortunate irony that the same guys who minimized the damage of Royce’s attack and kept the ship from sinking don’t have the ability to build momentum on their own.

They are personable guys. High-character guys. They are the guys who this program needed the last three years. However, they are not the guys that will get this program back to an elite level.

Bring the hate…

Reason #2 – The Coaching Staff

Again, I’m not saying they are bad guys. On the contrary. From all accounts they are great guys. Most have significant connections to Montana’s glory days, which is both a blessing and a curse – more on that in a moment.

However, they are all career long position coaches for the most part. The Griz don’t have strong coordinators. Not on offense, on defense, or on special teams.

Prior to being tapped for the HC spot at Montana Mick’s only previous HC experiences was with Great Falls High (’74-’77) and Western Montana (’91-’92).

Offensively there are actually two coordinators; Scott Gragg and Kefense Hynson.

Gragg is a former Griz o-linemen who had a very good professional career in the NFL. He was the head coach of his high school for four years before coming back to Missoula. He’s been TE coach and O-line coach, but was tapped as co-offensive coordinator and assistant head coach.

Hyson – He did have two years of OC experience at Western Washington in ’07 and ’08. He left that to become receivers coach at Yale before coming to UM in 2012. He was named co-offensive coordinator after Rosenbach basically quit on the Griz.

Side note: What are the odds when Delany steps down, Engstrom steps in and makes it so Gragg becomes HC, Hyson OC, and Gregorak DC? All in the name of continuity and tradition?

Defensively there is Gregorak – By all accounts a great guy. He’s been with the program a long time, but would have gone with Hauck to UNLV. In fact he did go to UNLV, but then got into trouble. Had he gone, he would have most likely still be a position coach at UNLV.

He became coordinator only after Breske left for WSU after the 2011 season. The chaos of 2012 and the NCAA cloud hanging over the program most likely made it difficult UM to bring in a new DC. To be fair, Gregorak deserved a shot at the job.

I just don’t think he’s done that good of a job as DC. I think the ridiculous talent he’s had covered for the relatively weak schemes. Good coaches exploit weak schemes - think Coastal Carolina...

Considering all of the turmoil in 2012 I’m grateful as a fan for what these guys did. Besides providing stability to the program and minimizing the damage of Engstrom’s decision, I think their biggest contributions has come on the recruiting trail.

They have done an exceptional job bringing quality kids into the program, which is a huge part of what great position coaches do - they recruit! Make no mistake about it, these guys are great position coaches.

That being said, taking the emotion out of the discussion, does anyone truly believe that these men would be in the same leadership roles at any other FCS or FBS school?

If not for their history with the school and the circumstances of 2012, does anyone think they we even would be the HC, OC, and DC at UM?

I think the answer is no.

So if Montana wants to get back to being an elite FCS program, then it’s going to have to start with addressing the talent gaps on the coaching staff.

How to handle that elegantly, showing them the appreciation and respect for what they’ve contributed to the program, while potentially showing some of them the door, is no easy task.

Reason #3 – Montana Only Hires Montana

However, it can be done. Look no further than Montana State. When it came time to cut ties with the previous coaching staff and start fresh, they didn’t confine their search to the MSU campus or Bobcat Alumni.

Rob Ash was not a guy with MSU history prior to 2007. The same can be said for most of his staff. Look at their current OC or the previous ones Ash has had to replace during his tenure.

Those were not guys with Bobcat connections. They were the most talented and accomplished coaches and that’s why they were hired.

Montana doesn’t seem to do that. They instead look for first and foremost with a guy who has some previous connection to Montana. Then they put the illusion of a national search before they end up hiring the less qualified, less accomplished guy with ties to Montana.

The last Griz coach that took the helm with no prior Griz connection was Don Read. That turned out okay. Dennehy, Glenn, and Hauck all did very well too and moved on to bigger schools.

So it’s a formula/philosophy that worked. In fact it was working. I think the program was right back in the elite category with Pflugrad in 2011, but Engstrom destroyed the elite status of the program and corrupted the formula.

I think Pflugrad was the absolute ideal candidate for Montana HC. He had the Montana connection, coaching with Read, leaving for the PAC-10 and then coming back to Montana in 2009 in Hauck’s last year. True he didn’t have previous coordinator experience, but it’s not because he didn’t have the talent.

He made different career decisions for his family that kept him from going to schools like Alabama. Montana was a perfect fit for him. He was later in his life and wasn’t in a position to chase a bigger contract somewhere else. Montana was his dream job and I think he would have stayed here a very, very long time.

He also had developed strong connections in the coaching community that would have enabled him to bring in high-quality coaches on his staff to replace the guys like Breske who would inevitably leave for more money.

If you think back to the 2011 offense and what JJ was doing as a sophomore in that offense. What Breske or a new experienced DC could have done with Tripp and Coyle…

The Griz could have been the Ducks of the FCS, right down to the alumni at Nike. I believe the program was poised to do what NDSU has done the last several years. I really do, which is why Engstrom’s decision to fire Phlu and O’Day was so devastating.

But I digress…

I would hope though at this point in time that Montana finally goes outside and looks to start fresh rather than promoting Gragg to head coach and dropping the ‘co’ from Hyson’s title. If that happens it will be done in the name of continuity. I also believe it will set the program back another 2 to 5 years when it comes to getting back to being an elite team.

I think Montana needs to look for the next Don Read. Bring in someone that’s ready to define the program for the next 20 years rather than remind everyone how good the Griz were during the past 20 years, similar to what Ash is doing in Bozeman.

Could you imagine what kinds of numbers JJ, Van, Canada, Ellis, Jones, and the gang could have been putting up the last few years if UM hadn’t gone away from the Oregon style spread offense that UM was running in 2011?

Instead they've reverted back to the vanilla, pro-style offense that could not be described as elite. Solid? Yes. Well balanced? Yes. Elite? Nope.

A QB who put up 800+ yards of offense and has thrown or passed for 14 touchdown in two games is elite. Those are truly elite numbers that get guys recognized nationally. It’s ironic/disappointing that Prukop was added to the Payton watch list the same week JJ was taken off. I get the sense that one program is trending up, while the other one is trending down...

In Conclusion...

To conclude, Montana is no longer among the elite FCS programs because of the decisions Royce Engstrom has made. Mick and his staff have done an admirable job the last few years. They minimized the damage of Engstrom intentionally inflicted on the program. However, the circumstances that required Mick and the rest of the Montana legacy guys to lead this program are now solidly in the past. The time has come to bring in new leadership that is more qualified to return the program to the elite FCS level. However, they must continue to be high-quality, high-integrity guys like the current staff.

That’s definitely an area that’s not been lacking with the current staff.

Your starting premise is wrong. Montana is clearly an elite program, one of the most elite. Not top dog anymore, but certainly elite.

Your point about everything being in the past, in terms of records, etc., is true for every program in the country. In the case of UM, UM was in the semifinals in 2011, so 3 years ago. A playoff seed and 10-3 record last year. Feel free to list the number of teams that have been in the semifinals in the past 3 years and a playoff seed last year, or any year in that 3-year period. There aren't many besides NDSU, EWU and UM.

By the way, speaking technically as if UM didn't win what it did in '11, is just plain dumb, in terms of anlayzing where the program is. I repeat. Just plain dumb.

I don't disagree with you on Engstrom's leadership, or lack thereof.

You are wrong on the coaches. Most of the coaches are young, and haven't yet had enough experience to move up the ladder. They are not career long postion coaches. Gregorak is a strong defensive coordinator and getting better every year. I don't know enough about offense to evaluate the offensive coordinators (nor do you). I hear good things about Hynson. I think Gregorak has a decent chance of being the next UM head coach. By the way, UM didn't have a problem bringing in a DC, when Gregorak was hired. I talked to Pflu today, by the way.

If you don't think Gregorak is doing a good job with the defense this year, you don't know much about defense. CC scored 3 of its TD's in 6 minutes. If you think that was a break down in the scheme, you are nuts. The scheme held up fine the rest of the game.

Yes, the coordinators would be in good and similar positions at other schools, is my view. I don't agree with your statement.

UM doesn't have a talent gap on coaching. The staff is good. Some of the young guys are complete up and comers. Yes, Delaney is older, and yes some think the co-O coordinators isn't a good idea.

Most programs look to hiring coaches with a connection to the school or the region. Lots of schools hire from within. Jeez, look at what the famous NDSU last year.

You may want to ask Tripp and Coyle what Gregorak did for them. Assume you don't know them, though.

Offensive schemes are not "elite". Jeez, what are you talking about? Are you saying that NDSU's offense isn't elite, or that NDSU isn't elite because it doesn't use the spread?

The single biggest thing that could/will, realistically, bring UM back towards the tip top, is the announcement and building of the new weight/locker rooms (at the level currently being considered).

While you point out Engstrom's lack of leadership and the firing of Pflu (and I would include O'Day), you seemed to have overlooked the various investigations, ncaa sanctions and loss of JJ for a year, which have also contributed to what has occurred in recent years. The horrible weight/locker room facilities probably haven't helped either.

Good job on stating your views, and articulating. Too bad your starting assumption was wrong. Ha.
 
EverettGriz said:
'68griz said:
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.
I'm not sure RE wanted to "destroy" Griz football, but I definitely believe that he didn't give a rat's ass what happened to it. If he had truly cared, Pflugrad and O'Day would still be here. JMHO.


And that's the key point, 68. It's your opinion that that is the case. Engstrom made a decision at that time which was largely unpopular, but one that in his mind was best for the program and for the University. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the program. If you believe he truly doesn't care, schedule a meeting with him and ask him. Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

It's my opinion that Engstrom cares far, far more about athletics than Dennison ever did. Dennison cared about the revenue. Engstrom cares about athletics and the student athlete experience. And I think we're beginning to see that pay dividends with the athletic building taking place.

Engstrom doesn't know enough about athletics to properly care for athletics or the program. I suspect that he has learned more about the benefits from athletics in the past several years, and has presumably gotten an earful from some people at times. Understanding athletics is much more than attending games and jumping up when a TD is scored. Dennison understand the role and benefits of athletics. By the way, I have seats new him and talk to him about football fairly often. Dennison would never have fired Pflu/O'Day. UM football would be in a much better position now if Dennison were still here, in my view.
 
MiningCity's post exposes him as That Guy. Who gives a flying frisbee if we are "elite" enough for you and Monte' and '68 the rest of the whiners. We were only "elite" by your standard in the two NC seasons. And even then not truley "elite" by your reasoning because we didn't have a perfect record as I recall. A true fan is proud of the Griz year in and year out and is glad RE put the hammer down on the program before it got any more out of control. A real fan is happy to see what the admin and supporters have put together to keep our facilities top shelf, while Montana Football continues to be profitable and successful. All this resentment toward RE and MD has never been justified- it's just personal angst that your life sucks if the Griz don't win at all costs.
 
Buttegrizzle said:
MiningCity's post exposes him as That Guy. Who gives a flying frisbee if we are "elite" enough for you and Monte' and '68 the rest of the whiners. We were only "elite" by your standard in the two NC seasons. And even then not truley "elite" by your reasoning because we didn't have a perfect record as I recall. A true fan is proud of the Griz year in and year out and is glad RE put the hammer down on the program before it got any more out of control. A real fan is happy to see what the admin and supporters have put together to keep our facilities top shelf, while Montana Football continues to be profitable and successful. All this resentment toward RE and MD has never been justified- it's just personal angst that your life sucks if the Griz don't win at all costs.

Great post, BG.
 
Robsnotes4u said:
EverettGriz said:
Well, MiningCity has all of the cat trolls who are too embarrassed to admit that's what they are agreeing with him. So he's got that goin' for him....

You seem to throw the word, troll around loosely, so I thought it would be best to give you the definition. Funny, during the process, I realized the word defines who you are on Egriz.

YNzPuFj.png

Actually, the troll definition fits you fairly well. Everett is not even close to being a troll. While he and I often don't agree, he is a very good poster, with some good information, and a very strong Griz fan. I'm glad he takes on posters like you.
 
monte is a character said:
I saw a thread on Maroonblood discussing how far our program has declined the past few years, and how different posters would fix the decline. Thought it may be an interesting topic over on this board.

Here are my thoughts. Anxious to see yours.

First, the consensus over there is that Delaney was the logical choice to take the reigns after the Pflu was fired, and that he was the only one who could have gotten the program back on the right track. I find this train of thought ridiculous. To anoint him as some kind of unique entity is amusing. In my mind, the fan base made a bigger deal out of the 'problems" than the players ever did. They just wanted to play football. Why couldn't we have hired a new head coach from outside the program at that time? It was three years ago now, and I can not help believe that our program would not be better off now if we had done so.

Here is my formula for returning our program to an elite one in FCS:

1) Meet with coach Delaney now, and inform him that his contract will not be renewed next season.

You fire him midseason and you essentially fire the entire coaching staff. You can kiss this season goodbye. That would be really unfair to the players, especially the seniors. We are 5-2 and have a very good chance of making the playoffs. We've had so many seasons where our team really turned it up at midseason and made a run in the playoffs. Depriving the kids of that, because we didn't beat Wyo and NDSU is unfair. Beyond that it is just a damaging decision.

2) Immediately start a national search to identify interest in our head job, so that we may complete the deal immediately after the season is over, to allow the maximum transition for recruiting continuity.

and you expect what kind of interest mid-season? You can't even recruit most of the viable candidates at this point of the year. Their focus is on there own teams and planning to win games for their own squads. Personally, I'd have no interest hiring a guy who would deflect their focus from his team for other career opportunities in the meat of the season

3) Require the new head coach to keep at least 3 of our current assistants, at least for his first year, including the recruiting coordinator, to minimize defections from our current commitments.

You further diminish your hiring pool. Not a good strategy. Kids would see the writing on the wall. They aren't going to honor their commitments just because you kept the recruiting coordinator on. If I'm a kid with other options, I jump at those as soon as I see that the firing decisions have been made.

4) Begin construction of our new weight room/athletic center

Awesome. Go raise the money or pony t up.

5) Re-structure our marketing efforts and enhance the game-day product

Don't totally disagree, but we still have an elite game-day environment for the FCS

6) Hire an assistant (or head coach) with solid recruiting connections to areas of the country where we currently have no connections (Texas, Minnesota, Ohio, Florida, etc.)

Have to be careful with this. Montana means something to our recruiting grounds: MT, OR, WA, CA, AZ. Montana means nothing to Florida kids or even Ohio kids and you aren't going to find any deeper talent pools in those states than you would in our current areas. If you happen to get a quality football mind that has connections outside the area, that's great. Totally switching your focus from programs and regions that have produced alot of talent and where we have built a reputation is bad practice

Should be an interesting thread......

As far as if we have an elite program or not. I would argue that if you polled all the ADs and HCs in the FCS who they consider elite programs, Montana would be high up on the list. There is always room for improvement, but giving up and starting from scratch is bad practice and incredibly risky.

Change can be good, but it has to be calculated and done at the appropriate time. Right now, in the midst of a winning season, where we are in a fight for a good year, is not appropriate.
 
PlayerRep said:
Robsnotes4u said:
EverettGriz said:
Well, MiningCity has all of the cat trolls who are too embarrassed to admit that's what they are agreeing with him. So he's got that goin' for him....

You seem to throw the word, troll around loosely, so I thought it would be best to give you the definition. Funny, during the process, I realized the word defines who you are on Egriz.

YNzPuFj.png

Actually, the troll definition fits you fairly well. Everett is not even close to being a troll. While he and I often don't agree, he is a very good poster, with some good information, and a very strong Griz fan. I'm glad he takes on posters like you.

I appreciate you proving the point about yourself also. Great job, Counselor.
 
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.

I don't think Engstrom wanted to "destroy Griz football," his intent in firing Pflugrad and O'Day was simply to cover his ass and deflect attention from his own failures/mismanagement in regard to sexual assaults on campus.

Only an arrogant moron would think this way, but Engstrom is just that-an arrogant moron.

In regard to determining if the Griz are an "elite football program," it depends on how one interprets the adjective "elite." A dictionary defines elite as, "representing the most choice or select; best." Under such a definition I would consider only NDSU as "elite," since they are the best FCS football program (i.e., in terms of winning recent championships).

If one expands the definition of "elite" to include the more select FCS college football programs, one eventually might consider the Griz to be "elite" depending on how far down the list you want to go, but Griz are certainly no longer the best (--and never will be with Mick Delaney as Head Coach).

Griz would be a lot closer to being elite if it could rid itself of old coach Delaney, and especially UM's incompetent President Engstrom, who is at the root of these problems.
 
GrizRanger said:
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.

I don't think Engstrom wanted to "destroy Griz football," his intent in firing Pflugrad and O'Day was simply to cover his ass and deflect attention from his own failures/mismanagement in regard to sexual assaults on campus.

Only an arrogant moron would think this way, but Engstrom is just that-an arrogant moron.

In regard to determining if the Griz are an "elite football program," it depends on how one interprets the adjective "elite." A dictionary defines elite as, "representing the most choice or select; best." Under such a definition I would consider only NDSU as "elite," since they are the best FCS football program (i.e., in terms of winning recent championships).

If one expands the definition of "elite" to include the more select FCS college football programs, one eventually might consider the Griz to be "elite" depending on how far down the list you want to go, but Griz are certainly no longer the best (--and never will be with Mick Delaney as Head Coach).

Griz would be a lot closer to being elite if it could rid itself of old coach Delaney, and especially UM's incompetent President Engstrom, who is at the root of these problems.

Great freakin' post. Enough said....,,,
 
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