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Returning to an elite FCS program

Sam A. Blitz said:
monte is a character said:
I saw a thread on Maroonblood discussing how far our program has declined the past few years, and how different posters would fix the decline. Thought it may be an interesting topic over on this board.

Here are my thoughts. Anxious to see yours.

First, the consensus over there is that Delaney was the logical choice to take the reigns after the Pflu was fired, and that he was the only one who could have gotten the program back on the right track. I find this train of thought ridiculous. To anoint him as some kind of unique entity is amusing. In my mind, the fan base made a bigger deal out of the 'problems" than the players ever did. They just wanted to play football. Why couldn't we have hired a new head coach from outside the program at that time? It was three years ago now, and I can not help believe that our program would not be better off now if we had done so.

Here is my formula for returning our program to an elite one in FCS:

1) Meet with coach Delaney now, and inform him that his contract will not be renewed next season.

You fire him midseason and you essentially fire the entire coaching staff. You can kiss this season goodbye. That would be really unfair to the players, especially the seniors. We are 5-2 and have a very good chance of making the playoffs. We've had so many seasons where our team really turned it up at midseason and made a run in the playoffs. Depriving the kids of that, because we didn't beat Wyo and NDSU is unfair. Beyond that it is just a damaging decision.

2) Immediately start a national search to identify interest in our head job, so that we may complete the deal immediately after the season is over, to allow the maximum transition for recruiting continuity.

and you expect what kind of interest mid-season? You can't even recruit most of the viable candidates at this point of the year. Their focus is on there own teams and planning to win games for their own squads. Personally, I'd have no interest hiring a guy who would deflect their focus from his team for other career opportunities in the meat of the season

3) Require the new head coach to keep at least 3 of our current assistants, at least for his first year, including the recruiting coordinator, to minimize defections from our current commitments.

You further diminish your hiring pool. Not a good strategy. Kids would see the writing on the wall. They aren't going to honor their commitments just because you kept the recruiting coordinator on. If I'm a kid with other options, I jump at those as soon as I see that the firing decisions have been made.

4) Begin construction of our new weight room/athletic center

Awesome. Go raise the money or pony t up.

5) Re-structure our marketing efforts and enhance the game-day product

Don't totally disagree, but we still have an elite game-day environment for the FCS

6) Hire an assistant (or head coach) with solid recruiting connections to areas of the country where we currently have no connections (Texas, Minnesota, Ohio, Florida, etc.)

Have to be careful with this. Montana means something to our recruiting grounds: MT, OR, WA, CA, AZ. Montana means nothing to Florida kids or even Ohio kids and you aren't going to find any deeper talent pools in those states than you would in our current areas. If you happen to get a quality football mind that has connections outside the area, that's great. Totally switching your focus from programs and regions that have produced alot of talent and where we have built a reputation is bad practice

Should be an interesting thread......

As far as if we have an elite program or not. I would argue that if you polled all the ADs and HCs in the FCS who they consider elite programs, Montana would be high up on the list. There is always room for improvement, but giving up and starting from scratch is bad practice and incredibly risky.

Change can be good, but it has to be calculated and done at the appropriate time. Right now, in the midst of a winning season, where we are in a fight for a good year, is not appropriate.

Thanks for giving your opinions, which is a rather unique concept on this board, to actually provide discussion about the topic of the thread. I just don't agree with your points. On many occasions head coaches have been informed during the season that their contract will not be renewed, especially when they have hinted about retiring all season long (see Mack Brown). As for the assistant coaches packing it in during season, I don't but that. Two points regarding that. Don't you think that these Griz assistants are already looking at their future options, because of the probability that Delaney will either retire, as he has hinted, or not have his contract renewed? Secondly, if the assistants knew that 3 of them would definitely return, but were not sure which three, they would still give it 100%. Third, the certainty of knowing their future would give them the luxury of lining up future jobs.
 
Buttegrizzle said:
MiningCity's post exposes him as That Guy. Who gives a flying frisbee if we are "elite" enough for you and Monte' and '68 the rest of the whiners. We were only "elite" by your standard in the two NC seasons. And even then not truley "elite" by your reasoning because we didn't have a perfect record as I recall. A true fan is proud of the Griz year in and year out and is glad RE put the hammer down on the program before it got any more out of control. A real fan is happy to see what the admin and supporters have put together to keep our facilities top shelf, while Montana Football continues to be profitable and successful. All this resentment toward RE and MD has never been justified- it's just personal angst that your life sucks if the Griz don't win at all costs.


:coffee: :sleep:
 
PlayerRep said:
EverettGriz said:
'68griz said:
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.
I'm not sure RE wanted to "destroy" Griz football, but I definitely believe that he didn't give a rat's ass what happened to it. If he had truly cared, Pflugrad and O'Day would still be here. JMHO.


And that's the key point, 68. It's your opinion that that is the case. Engstrom made a decision at that time which was largely unpopular, but one that in his mind was best for the program and for the University. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about the program. If you believe he truly doesn't care, schedule a meeting with him and ask him. Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

It's my opinion that Engstrom cares far, far more about athletics than Dennison ever did. Dennison cared about the revenue. Engstrom cares about athletics and the student athlete experience. And I think we're beginning to see that pay dividends with the athletic building taking place.

Engstrom doesn't know enough about athletics to properly care for athletics or the program. I suspect that he has learned more about the benefits from athletics in the past several years, and has presumably gotten an earful from some people at times. Understanding athletics is much more than attending games and jumping up when a TD is scored. Dennison understand the role and benefits of athletics. By the way, I have seats new him and talk to him about football fairly often. Dennison would never have fired Pflu/O'Day. UM football would be in a much better position now if Dennison were still here, in my view.

Is there anybody that you are not butt-brothers with in Grizzly athletics. You never miss an opportunity to let us know how important you are, and how all of the players are your friends.
 
MiningCityGrizFan said:
Before Montana can return to the elite level of FCS it must first acknowledge that it is no longer an elite program and then begin working to understand why.

But first we must prep that guy…

You know the guy. He thinks he is part of the team. He talks about the Griz using the term “we” and “us”. Basically he considers himself to have some special quality or relationship to the program that makes him special and that sets him apart from other, lesser Griz fans.

That guy has something in his personality that makes Griz football a little too personal. Like a stalker who sincerely believes Jennifer Anniston really loves him…

Griz Nation is his religion. Washington-Grizzly is his church…

That’s actually a bad analogy, think less church and more cult.

You know the guy. We all know the guy…

Blind Devotion – (Reality + Logic) = That Guy


That guy still believes Montana is an elite FCS program. Saying otherwise proves you’re not a “real fan”.

That guy hates to hear anything critical said of the program, so I fully expect the Westboro wing of Griz Nation to declare a football fatwa after this post…

The Griz are not an elite FCS football team at this point in time.

tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg


The Griz used to be an elite FCS football team, very recently too.

The Griz could be an elite FCS football team again fairly soon.

Right now though, at this point in time, they’re not.

STOP!

Don’t be that guy. Just keep reading…

Remember all of the stats Griz fans could throw out when debating with people (Cat fans) about Griz football? Remember all of the amazing records for consecutive playoff appearances, consecutive wins over the Cats, consecutive conference titles, and consecutive non-losing seasons.

All of those are in the past. Now look at where we are today…

The Griz have not won a playoff game since 2011 and the NCAA says that no longer counts.
So technically the last playoff game the Griz won was against App. State in 2009.

The same goes for winning a Big Sky title. 2009.

Another way to put the decline in perspective… Jordan Tripp was a true freshman in 2009. He was the last Griz player on the roster to have played in and FCS national championship game.

So that makes this the first year since 1995 the Griz do not have a player on their roster who has played in an FCS national championship game.

That’s f*****g remarkable. It shows how long Griz Football had been an elite FCS team.

Key words – had been

So let’s all take a deep breath and face reality…The Griz program is no longer an elite FCS program.

This could devolve into a debate about what it truly means to be elite, but I don’t want to go there…

Instead I’d like to start looking at what’s keeping them from being elite.

Reason #1 – Royce Engsrom

The Griz could return to the elite status within the next 3 to 5 years, but I but don’t believe being an elite program is a priority for the current UM leadership, especially Royce Engstrom. If it had been, he wouldn’t have fired Pflugrad and one of the most respected FCS athletic directors in the country.

Make no mistake about it, Royce wanted to blow up the ship that is the Griz football program. Thanks to Mick Delany and the current staff, he didn’t succeed. However, he did effectively kill the program’s momentum that was started under Read when he fired Pflugrad.

Delany has done a superb job plugging the holes and keeping the ship from sinking, but the ship has slowed and we’re falling behind teams like EWU and, yes, MSU in the Big Sky and teams like NDSU nationally.

So it’s an unfortunate irony that the same guys who minimized the damage of Royce’s attack and kept the ship from sinking don’t have the ability to build momentum on their own.

They are personable guys. High-character guys. They are the guys who this program needed the last three years. However, they are not the guys that will get this program back to an elite level.

Bring the hate…

Reason #2 – The Coaching Staff

Again, I’m not saying they are bad guys. On the contrary. From all accounts they are great guys. Most have significant connections to Montana’s glory days, which is both a blessing and a curse – more on that in a moment.

However, they are all career long position coaches for the most part. The Griz don’t have strong coordinators. Not on offense, on defense, or on special teams.

Prior to being tapped for the HC spot at Montana Mick’s only previous HC experiences was with Great Falls High (’74-’77) and Western Montana (’91-’92).

Offensively there are actually two coordinators; Scott Gragg and Kefense Hynson.

Gragg is a former Griz o-linemen who had a very good professional career in the NFL. He was the head coach of his high school for four years before coming back to Missoula. He’s been TE coach and O-line coach, but was tapped as co-offensive coordinator and assistant head coach.

Hyson – He did have two years of OC experience at Western Washington in ’07 and ’08. He left that to become receivers coach at Yale before coming to UM in 2012. He was named co-offensive coordinator after Rosenbach basically quit on the Griz.

Side note: What are the odds when Delany steps down, Engstrom steps in and makes it so Gragg becomes HC, Hyson OC, and Gregorak DC? All in the name of continuity and tradition?

Defensively there is Gregorak – By all accounts a great guy. He’s been with the program a long time, but would have gone with Hauck to UNLV. In fact he did go to UNLV, but then got into trouble. Had he gone, he would have most likely still be a position coach at UNLV.

He became coordinator only after Breske left for WSU after the 2011 season. The chaos of 2012 and the NCAA cloud hanging over the program most likely made it difficult UM to bring in a new DC. To be fair, Gregorak deserved a shot at the job.

I just don’t think he’s done that good of a job as DC. I think the ridiculous talent he’s had covered for the relatively weak schemes. Good coaches exploit weak schemes - think Coastal Carolina...

Considering all of the turmoil in 2012 I’m grateful as a fan for what these guys did. Besides providing stability to the program and minimizing the damage of Engstrom’s decision, I think their biggest contributions has come on the recruiting trail.

They have done an exceptional job bringing quality kids into the program, which is a huge part of what great position coaches do - they recruit! Make no mistake about it, these guys are great position coaches.

That being said, taking the emotion out of the discussion, does anyone truly believe that these men would be in the same leadership roles at any other FCS or FBS school?

If not for their history with the school and the circumstances of 2012, does anyone think they we even would be the HC, OC, and DC at UM?

I think the answer is no.

So if Montana wants to get back to being an elite FCS program, then it’s going to have to start with addressing the talent gaps on the coaching staff.

How to handle that elegantly, showing them the appreciation and respect for what they’ve contributed to the program, while potentially showing some of them the door, is no easy task.

Reason #3 – Montana Only Hires Montana

However, it can be done. Look no further than Montana State. When it came time to cut ties with the previous coaching staff and start fresh, they didn’t confine their search to the MSU campus or Bobcat Alumni.

Rob Ash was not a guy with MSU history prior to 2007. The same can be said for most of his staff. Look at their current OC or the previous ones Ash has had to replace during his tenure.

Those were not guys with Bobcat connections. They were the most talented and accomplished coaches and that’s why they were hired.

Montana doesn’t seem to do that. They instead look for first and foremost with a guy who has some previous connection to Montana. Then they put the illusion of a national search before they end up hiring the less qualified, less accomplished guy with ties to Montana.

The last Griz coach that took the helm with no prior Griz connection was Don Read. That turned out okay. Dennehy, Glenn, and Hauck all did very well too and moved on to bigger schools.

So it’s a formula/philosophy that worked. In fact it was working. I think the program was right back in the elite category with Pflugrad in 2011, but Engstrom destroyed the elite status of the program and corrupted the formula.

I think Pflugrad was the absolute ideal candidate for Montana HC. He had the Montana connection, coaching with Read, leaving for the PAC-10 and then coming back to Montana in 2009 in Hauck’s last year. True he didn’t have previous coordinator experience, but it’s not because he didn’t have the talent.

He made different career decisions for his family that kept him from going to schools like Alabama. Montana was a perfect fit for him. He was later in his life and wasn’t in a position to chase a bigger contract somewhere else. Montana was his dream job and I think he would have stayed here a very, very long time.

He also had developed strong connections in the coaching community that would have enabled him to bring in high-quality coaches on his staff to replace the guys like Breske who would inevitably leave for more money.

If you think back to the 2011 offense and what JJ was doing as a sophomore in that offense. What Breske or a new experienced DC could have done with Tripp and Coyle…

The Griz could have been the Ducks of the FCS, right down to the alumni at Nike. I believe the program was poised to do what NDSU has done the last several years. I really do, which is why Engstrom’s decision to fire Phlu and O’Day was so devastating.

But I digress…

I would hope though at this point in time that Montana finally goes outside and looks to start fresh rather than promoting Gragg to head coach and dropping the ‘co’ from Hyson’s title. If that happens it will be done in the name of continuity. I also believe it will set the program back another 2 to 5 years when it comes to getting back to being an elite team.

I think Montana needs to look for the next Don Read. Bring in someone that’s ready to define the program for the next 20 years rather than remind everyone how good the Griz were during the past 20 years, similar to what Ash is doing in Bozeman.

Could you imagine what kinds of numbers JJ, Van, Canada, Ellis, Jones, and the gang could have been putting up the last few years if UM hadn’t gone away from the Oregon style spread offense that UM was running in 2011?

Instead they've reverted back to the vanilla, pro-style offense that could not be described as elite. Solid? Yes. Well balanced? Yes. Elite? Nope.

A QB who put up 800+ yards of offense and has thrown or passed for 14 touchdown in two games is elite. Those are truly elite numbers that get guys recognized nationally. It’s ironic/disappointing that Prukop was added to the Payton watch list the same week JJ was taken off. I get the sense that one program is trending up, while the other one is trending down...

In Conclusion...

To conclude, Montana is no longer among the elite FCS programs because of the decisions Royce Engstrom has made. Mick and his staff have done an admirable job the last few years. They minimized the damage of Engstrom intentionally inflicted on the program. However, the circumstances that required Mick and the rest of the Montana legacy guys to lead this program are now solidly in the past. The time has come to bring in new leadership that is more qualified to return the program to the elite FCS level. However, they must continue to be high-quality, high-integrity guys like the current staff.

That’s definitely an area that’s not been lacking with the current staff.

Well said...Perfectly said...
 
"6) Hire an assistant (or head coach) with solid recruiting connections to areas of the country where we currently have no connections (Texas, Minnesota, Ohio, Florida, etc.)

Have to be careful with this. Montana means something to our recruiting grounds: MT, OR, WA, CA, AZ. Montana means nothing to Florida kids or even Ohio kids and you aren't going to find any deeper talent pools in those states than you would in our current areas. If you happen to get a quality football mind that has connections outside the area, that's great. Totally switching your focus from programs and regions that have produced alot of talent and where we have built a reputation is bad practice"

Back when Wayne Hogan came from Florida St and took over as athletic director the Griz established somewhat of a recruiting pipeline from Florida. I am not sure how that ever worked out as don't recall any players that stood out from there. I had a couple classes with a few of the players but never seen them on the field. At any rate I believe some schools in Florida either moved up to FBS or started a program which took away the caliber of athletes the Griz once recruited from there. I may be way off here but just wanted to add that Florida was once a state the Griz had connections with.
 
EverettGriz said:
[ Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

Engstrom may not survive the next 6-7 months as UM president, let alone 6-7 years. :coffee:
 
NorthwestFresh said:
EverettGriz said:
[ Ask him about how he envisions the program 6-7 years from now when he retires, and about his plan to get it there. I think your opinion just may change.

Engstrom may not survive the next 6-7 months as UM president, let alone 6-7 years. :coffee:
Just curious, did I miss something? Is he on the hot seat at the moment? Would love if he got the boot. You have some "insider" info?
 
Id like to see several changes at the end of this season in regard to the coaching staff and UM president. I just don't see how that's going to happen. I hate looking around the conference and seeing 3-4 middle of the pack programs, a couple of which were pretty atrocious just a season ago, all trending upwards, and quickly, while our program is stagnating. I think the world of all the Griz coaches as people, just don't think that should be justification for retaining them as coaches. UM needs a miracle this offseason in order to get this program back on track IMO.
 
EverettGriz said:
I didn't read "War and Peace". But anyone who honestly believes Royce Engstrom wants to/wanted to destroy Griz football is certifiably off their rocker.

We've all got friends that know someone who knows someone...

I was told that Engstrom's initial desire was to kill the football program completely -- a self imposed death sentence. Once someone told him the economic impact that would have on Missoula, he backed off and axed Pflu and O'Day.

Again, he's an outsider with zero ties to the program. He's also an academic. He didn't want Montana to move to the WAC because the conference was a joke and teams were fleeing He could care less about that. No, he didn't want Montana to be associated with schools that were considered to be academically inferior to UM.

He wants Montana to be considered an upper-level tier two school. Harvard, Stanford, Northwestern would be tier one schools for example. Montana will never be a tier one school, but his goal appears to be to push UM as high up the list of tier two schools as possible.

His goal is to build an academic institution, not an athletic program.

From what I've seen, he's more than content to see the program at it's current level. As long as we sell out our home games and the athletes aren't showing up in the news paper, I don't believe he cares.

Again, I'm not saying my opinion is infallible because of what I heard over a beer at a tailgate, I'm simply sharing my opinion based on what I heard and what I observed.
 
AZGrizFan said:
There's a difference between being an elite "program" and being an elite "team". We may not currently have an elite "team", but Montana most definitely continues to be an elite "program".

Signed,

The Westboro Wing

Thanks for reading the post. I know it ended up being a tad long... :)

I think you're confusing "elite" for "special"... I agree UM's football program is special. Just like Notre Dame's program is special.

They both have a long and storied history that their alumni and fans can take pride in.

They both have some amazing traditions.

They both have an amazing fan base that fill amazing stadiums and create one of the most amazing game day experiences in college football (less the tacky the pre-game motorcycle stuff you only see at UM games).

For the last three seasons though UM hasn't been able to field a team that has been able to achieve the level of success as previous UM teams.

So at this point in time, I don't consider the Montana program under Mick Delany to be anymore elite than Notre Dame was under Charlie Weis.

The performance of Weis' teams didn't take away what Tim Brown did anymore than the performance of Delaney's teams takes away from what Dave Dickenson did, it just is what it is.

ND made the decision to move away from Charlie Weis, a popular coach and an ND alumni, because they weren't happy with how the his teams performed.

ND alumni and administrators wanted to return to the elite levels of college football. Rather than attack those that dared to point out the fact that Weis' teams weren't performing well, they acknowledged it and made a change.

They didn't bring in another alumni or someone who has ties to the ND program. They literally searched the country and brought in the best coach they could find - Brian Kelly. As a result of what Kelly has done, ND is now back among the elite of major college football.

I believe Montana can do the same thing, but it will start by acknowledging that they are not currently among the elite teams in FCS and then doing whatever is necessary to bring in the most qualified coaching staff that UM can afford to hire.
 
EverettGriz said:
Well, MiningCity has all of the cat trolls who are too embarrassed to admit that's what they are agreeing with him. So he's got that goin' for him....

I think there might be a few more after last night...
 
MiningCityGrizFan said:
We've all got friends that know someone who knows someone...

I was told that Engstrom's initial desire was to kill the football program completely -- a self imposed death sentence...

That's just laughable. Seriously, 6th-grade rumor-mongering. But it was entertaining - I LOLed.
 
Dang. Hanging a university emphasize education...how stupid of RE. Silly guy. Universities are about athetics, not achedemics. Why would any college strive to be the best achedemic institution it can be. Shaking my head.
 
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