Kaimin video, recruiting by UM and MSU

[PlayerRep]

Resources are obviously an issue given the disparity between UM and msu. But, adding money and staff is not the silver bullet. In fact, those choices represent a simplistic, transactional, short-term, approach.

SB is initiating a transformational approach by reorganizing the staff in order to correctly align resources available to priorities. This will undoubtedly require the elimination of some positions. My guess is we will see more and not less of this, and it is required IMO.

so what facts are you working with to make these profound statements(bqm) sounds to me like you read a couple lines and then are 'intuiting' a bunch of conclusions based on... nothing but your gut feeling. got any facts to back up that what you say fits this situation(bqm)

If $2.1 million gets you 8-10 mailers and a barrage of emails and social media while $1.4 million gets you one horrendously late little flyer with a dearth of information, I'm not sure an additional $2 million would solve UM's problems. It ain't about the money....I'd LOVE to see where the $1.4 million is ACTUALLY going, because it sure as hell isn't going to actual recruiting. Looks to me like the recruiting office at UM operates about like Wounded Warriors Project....95% of the money is spent to maintain the administrative staff and about 5% is spent on ACTUAL recruiting.

Its systemic....based off this quote from the Missoulian article....its pretty obvious that the incompetence is found at every level within this school.

Faculty Senate Chair Bowman said her head was spinning with the news Crady's contract was not renewed, especially given recent reports of the budget cut that took place in enrollment and the uptick in freshman numbers nonetheless.



Really..your head is spinning??? He was innovative??? Sending emails has been around for quite some time, and we failed miserably to even do that.

Its literally never been easier to reach a wide range of people in the history of mankind....every day some moron with a twitter account becomes a millionaire because they can figure out how to monetize social media....but our guy we came up with from a national search cant figure out the very basics????

My impression is that people like Bowman are also part of the problem at UM, not necessarily recruiting or enrollment. Bowman doesn't seem to be on the "team", or isn't a team player.

My guess is that we will see Bowman quoted frequently, as the MIssoulian will go to Bowman frequently to get somewhat of a negative quote or reaction with anything that UM changes or Bodnar does. Think Bowman was part of the resume flap too.

I think Bodnar has been doing some recruiting stuff on his own. Heard he invited the "top 50" high school seniors to UM or his house for a reception or gathering. Or something like that.

 

[grizd]

This shit is soooo god damn easy to do in 2018...you can have a freaking robot send this shit out...and WE WERNT DOING IT??????

This blows my f***[*] mind.

It would have taken great resolve to not punch everyone involved in that department if i were Bodnar, lol.

Emails cost pennies and no time. I know this first hand that high school kids get engaged by MSU at a much younger age, or for that matter, at all. This is crazy and a very nice story by the kid at the Kaiman. Maybe UM should hire him.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

Having a daughter that is just wrapping up her Senior year, I can say without a doubt that MSU is miles ahead of UM in recruiting prospective students. I can also say it is not directly about the money allocated, but the process. UM is years and years behind, and with the current recruiting process are just throwing away what money they do have.

 

[PlayerRep]

Couldn’t agree more. The resources available to Crady are not sufficient. Good luck, hope our new president has a good plan. The old drain the swamp think is a simplistic long term approach.

Resources are obviously an issue given the disparity between UM and msu. But, adding money and staff is not the silver bullet. In fact, those choices represent a simplistic, transactional, short-term, approach.

SB is initiating a transformational approach by reorganizing the staff in order to correctly align resources available to priorities. This will undoubtedly require the elimination of some positions. My guess is we will see more and not less of this, and it is required IMO.

so what facts are you working with to make these profound statements(bqm) sounds to me like you read a couple lines and then are 'intuiting' a bunch of conclusions based on... nothing but your gut feeling. got any facts to back up that what you say fits this situation(bqm)

If $2.1 million gets you 8-10 mailers and a barrage of emails and social media while $1.4 million gets you one horrendously late little flyer with a dearth of information, I'm not sure an additional $2 million would solve UM's problems. It ain't about the money....I'd LOVE to see where the $1.4 million is ACTUALLY going, because it sure as hell isn't going to actual recruiting. Looks to me like the recruiting office at UM operates about like Wounded Warriors Project....95% of the money is spent to maintain the administrative staff and about 5% is spent on ACTUAL recruiting.

Wounded Warrior stats, from a neutral source on 2/1/18:

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12842

 

[grizphan]

Step daughter is a freshman at WSU and would have went here. 4.0 student high school student and thriving over there. WSU went out of their way to recruit her. Montana could not have cared less. The difference was staggering and saddening. It was an easy decision for her.

 

[bgbigdog]

I've been a UM fan my entire life, but did not go to college. I chose to take the trade route in the US Air Force. Worked out great. If I had to go back and decide what school to attend, it would be MSU. Much better choices than a liberal arts school. Many people will disagree with me, but it's how I see it.

They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.

So you’re saying there’s a lot to be proud of and promote, but somehow whoever had the job of recruiting prospective students for the past decade or more has failed? Check.

 

[SoldierGriz]

Resources are obviously an issue given the disparity between UM and msu. But, adding money and staff is not the silver bullet. In fact, those choices represent a simplistic, transactional, short-term, approach.

SB is initiating a transformational approach by reorganizing the staff in order to correctly align resources available to priorities. This will undoubtedly require the elimination of some positions. My guess is we will see more and not less of this, and it is required IMO.

so what facts are you working with to make these profound statements(bqm) sounds to me like you read a couple lines and then are 'intuiting' a bunch of conclusions based on... nothing but your gut feeling. got any facts to back up that what you say fits this situation(bqm)

If $2.1 million gets you 8-10 mailers and a barrage of emails and social media while $1.4 million gets you one horrendously late little flyer with a dearth of information, I'm not sure an additional $2 million would solve UM's problems. It ain't about the money....I'd LOVE to see where the $1.4 million is ACTUALLY going, because it sure as hell isn't going to actual recruiting. Looks to me like the recruiting office at UM operates about like Wounded Warriors Project....95% of the money is spent to maintain the administrative staff and about 5% is spent on ACTUAL recruiting.

Wounded Warrior stats, from a neutral source on 2/1/18:

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12842

PR - it looks like they have cleaned up their act. They had some very serious issues as AZ describes above in the past. I transitioned my contributions to the Fisher House Foundation as a result.

Glad they are cleaning it up.

 

[Ringneck]

I've been a UM fan my entire life, but did not go to college. I chose to take the trade route in the US Air Force. Worked out great. If I had to go back and decide what school to attend, it would be MSU. Much better choices than a liberal arts school. Many people will disagree with me, but it's how I see it.

They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.

Bingo.

 

[Ringneck]

Effective recruiting will emphasize U of M's excellent location, diverse academic opportunities, vibrant student life, and comparatively low (to private colleges) cost of attendance. But an improved enrollment management strategy is only part of the solution for U of M. Because of years of negative press and a growing and persistent anti-UM public perception, enrollment management staff were basically employed to polish and sell a high-priced turd.

If the most influential people in a high school senior's life - parents, peers, counselors, coaches, etc. - think the U of M is a hellhole offering dead-end degrees, so will the prospective students. So adding staff and resources to the department may help, but the X factor in an enrollment turnaround is a dramatically improved public impression of the University. That could take years.

 

[zootownrox]

I've been a UM fan my entire life, but did not go to college. I chose to take the trade route in the US Air Force. Worked out great. If I had to go back and decide what school to attend, it would be MSU. Much better choices than a liberal arts school. Many people will disagree with me, but it's how I see it.

They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.

So you’re saying there’s a lot to be proud of and promote, but somehow whoever had the job of recruiting prospective students for the past decade or more has failed? Check.

Yes you got it.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Resources are obviously an issue given the disparity between UM and msu. But, adding money and staff is not the silver bullet. In fact, those choices represent a simplistic, transactional, short-term, approach.

SB is initiating a transformational approach by reorganizing the staff in order to correctly align resources available to priorities. This will undoubtedly require the elimination of some positions. My guess is we will see more and not less of this, and it is required IMO.

so what facts are you working with to make these profound statements(bqm) sounds to me like you read a couple lines and then are 'intuiting' a bunch of conclusions based on... nothing but your gut feeling. got any facts to back up that what you say fits this situation(bqm)

If $2.1 million gets you 8-10 mailers and a barrage of emails and social media while $1.4 million gets you one horrendously late little flyer with a dearth of information, I'm not sure an additional $2 million would solve UM's problems. It ain't about the money....I'd LOVE to see where the $1.4 million is ACTUALLY going, because it sure as hell isn't going to actual recruiting. Looks to me like the recruiting office at UM operates about like Wounded Warriors Project....95% of the money is spent to maintain the administrative staff and about 5% is spent on ACTUAL recruiting.

Wounded Warrior stats, from a neutral source on 2/1/18:

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12842

Yeah, I was talking more about this stuff...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/03/10/wounded-warrior-project-reportedly-fires-top-executives-amid-spending-controversy.html

And the 95/5 wasn't meant to equate to the WWP number...but apparently that's the spread at the UM office, given the dearth of marketing materials actually flowing from their office to prospective students.

 

[AZGrizFan]

so what facts are you working with to make these profound statements(bqm) sounds to me like you read a couple lines and then are 'intuiting' a bunch of conclusions based on... nothing but your gut feeling. got any facts to back up that what you say fits this situation(bqm)

If $2.1 million gets you 8-10 mailers and a barrage of emails and social media while $1.4 million gets you one horrendously late little flyer with a dearth of information, I'm not sure an additional $2 million would solve UM's problems. It ain't about the money....I'd LOVE to see where the $1.4 million is ACTUALLY going, because it sure as hell isn't going to actual recruiting. Looks to me like the recruiting office at UM operates about like Wounded Warriors Project....95% of the money is spent to maintain the administrative staff and about 5% is spent on ACTUAL recruiting.

Wounded Warrior stats, from a neutral source on 2/1/18:

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=12842

PR - it looks like they have cleaned up their act. They had some very serious issues as AZ describes above in the past. I transitioned my contributions to the Fisher House Foundation as a result.

Glad they are cleaning it up.

Great choice, SG. Fisher House rocks. :thumb:

 

[cmtgrizzly]

I've been a UM fan my entire life, but did not go to college. I chose to take the trade route in the US Air Force. Worked out great. If I had to go back and decide what school to attend, it would be MSU. Much better choices than a liberal arts school. Many people will disagree with me, but it's how I see it.

They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.

Interesting take. I am biased for UM as well but I dont think you can say we have better STEM faculty. I would be interested in data that backs this statement.

Can you find the data in how many freshman come to UM for pharmacy and wildlife biology, heck throw forestry in there too, combined compared to how many go to MSU for engineering alone? I dont know the answer and it would be interesting to know.

There are very few jobs in Wildlife Biology. Dont get me wrong I like the idea of a career in that field but the job market is limited. Pharmacy is an ok example as it probably does bring some freshman to campus but in truth this is an advanced degree as you apply after a couple of undergrad years and kids from other institutions compete for those positions and I dont think the classes in pharmacy are all that big. Law school is a postgraduate program and I dont believe it brings all that many new kids to campus especially freshman. I will agree the business school draws quite a few, at least it did 25 years ago. Almost everyone was a business major. Back then the feeling was that all of the people who didnt know what they wanted to do said they were a business major.

 

[signedbewildered]

Now I'm curious.

What's changed?

I mean it wasn't too many years ago we were a pretty strong institution. Rising numbers or holding steady.

Then the shit hit the fan. What I don't know, was recruiting (techniques, approach) that much different than what it has been the last few years? Did we flop in the recruitment department at some point?

My theory is push over Engstrom didn't fight back against accusations and bad press, things escalated, soon as there is national attention. Numbers take a dive and now we need to claw our way out.

Even if we are doing no what we were ten years ago, it ain't working.

Drastic times.....measures or something or other however that goes. We just let it slide for too dang long.

 

[Yukon]

I've been a UM fan my entire life, but did not go to college. I chose to take the trade route in the US Air Force. Worked out great. If I had to go back and decide what school to attend, it would be MSU. Much better choices than a liberal arts school. Many people will disagree with me, but it's how I see it.

They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.

Might be why I am confused also. Thanks for the info.

 

[Ursa Major]

So the difference is the direct marketing firm, or not having the one that state ag employs? (By the way, love “tractor tech”, nicely played). You’re absolutely correct, there are non-compete clauses written into contracts as a matter of course. Money makes a great deal of difference, as does the firm.

But what I think you’re hearing Bodnar say is that the University is trying to figure out what it wants to be, now that it’s grown up. Tough to market something when you’re trying to figure out what you’re about. The university is struggling to be a relevant option for potential students given the world that awaits them. Bodnar knows that for sure.

That said, the kid @ the Kaimin laid it out pretty clearly. Everyone involved should be really embarrassed. Social media posts and email should be second nature, even for the most rudimentary of business partners. This was incredibly poorly executed, & 18 months is more than enough time to find a quality direct marketing partner & put together a significantly better effort.

Great post, Big dog!

I would suggest that you don't need the perfect messaging sent out, if you don't have it created, just send something, fucking anything. GET THE NAME AND BRAND OUT THERE.

I believe you mentioned having a marketing background. I have dabbled in marketing over the years. The real headscratcher isn't just the lack of social media and direct emails, it's also the sense that this hasn't been fixed YET. These are very solvable problems that take few financial and employee resources to get up and running. I can't believe a professional like Crady wouldn't easily recognize that. Which suggests organizational roadblocks. Either way, these are all self-inflicted, unforced errors.

 

[griz5700]

UM's failure to pursue interested students, compared to MSU, was a problem everyone was well aware before Crady took over. It's unacceptable that such a glaring flaw in recruitment hasn't been soundly addressed.

I wonder how much money was spent on Let's Go There! ? And who at UM signed off on it? let's eat there, let's vacation there, let's golf there...
And UM's new Junior College logo? Epic failure. Although I'm sure UM paid some major marketing firm $300K to tell them it was perfect for the U.

 

[Ursa Major]

so what facts are you working with to make these profound statements(bqm) sounds to me like you read a couple lines and then are 'intuiting' a bunch of conclusions based on... nothing but your gut feeling. got any facts to back up that what you say fits this situation(bqm)

If $2.1 million gets you 8-10 mailers and a barrage of emails and social media while $1.4 million gets you one horrendously late little flyer with a dearth of information, I'm not sure an additional $2 million would solve UM's problems. It ain't about the money....I'd LOVE to see where the $1.4 million is ACTUALLY going, because it sure as hell isn't going to actual recruiting. Looks to me like the recruiting office at UM operates about like Wounded Warriors Project....95% of the money is spent to maintain the administrative staff and about 5% is spent on ACTUAL recruiting.

Its systemic....based off this quote from the Missoulian article....its pretty obvious that the incompetence is found at every level within this school.

Faculty Senate Chair Bowman said her head was spinning with the news Crady's contract was not renewed, especially given recent reports of the budget cut that took place in enrollment and the uptick in freshman numbers nonetheless.



Really..your head is spinning??? He was innovative??? Sending emails has been around for quite some time, and we failed miserably to even do that.

Its literally never been easier to reach a wide range of people in the history of mankind....every day some moron with a twitter account becomes a millionaire because they can figure out how to monetize social media....but our guy we came up with from a national search cant figure out the very basics????

My impression is that people like Bowman are also part of the problem at UM, not necessarily recruiting or enrollment. Bowman doesn't seem to be on the "team", or isn't a team player.

My guess is that we will see Bowman quoted frequently, as the MIssoulian will go to Bowman frequently to get somewhat of a negative quote or reaction with anything that UM changes or Bodnar does. Think Bowman was part of the resume flap too.

I think Bodnar has been doing some recruiting stuff on his own. Heard he invited the "top 50" high school seniors to UM or his house for a reception or gathering. Or something like that.

Can any of them kick?

 

[Ursa Major]

I've been a UM fan my entire life, but did not go to college. I chose to take the trade route in the US Air Force. Worked out great. If I had to go back and decide what school to attend, it would be MSU. Much better choices than a liberal arts school. Many people will disagree with me, but it's how I see it.

They are both 'liberal arts' schools. MSU's enrollment increases have been almost entirely in what one would call 'liberal arts'. They also have an engineering program which is why people wrongly categorize MSU as hard science STEM focused and UM as not. UM has better STM (Science Technology and Math) programs and faculty then MSU. They have better researchers, the top wildlife biology program in the world, their biological sciences graduate's acceptance rate into med school is twice the national average. They have a great pharmacy program, a business school and law school none of which MSU has. These programs directly lead good paying jobs, with real world applications.

The idea that UM doesn't teach technical or applied skills for real world jobs and MSU does is BS (Bachelor of Shit). They do all that and give you a 'liberal arts' education - which means they teach you to learn, write and think critically. This isn't a school filled with just philosophy majors and arts students (though they have those too and nothing wrong with that). What they have not had is an administration who knows how to market the school and battle these misconceptions! That is the difference between UM and MSU.

Bingo.

+2 Great post, zoo!

 

[bgbigdog]

Are $ also spent in face-to-face efforts @ high schools? I live in Illinois & both my daughters attended school information sessions put on by Montana @ least once during the year. Both got @ least one physical in-home piece but no emails.

Are these visitors alums who live in a metro area Montana targets to recruit and get paid/volunteer time for that process? Or are they sending university employees on planes, putting them up & paying for meals, etc.

Another question - do kids/parents have to opt-in to receive college communications today? My oldest daughter knew where she was going to college from the first grade, never gave out an email for any reason. She got a couple dozen physical pieces from various schools. My youngest hot stacks of letters and brochures & she tells me she got dozens of emails each week from various schools.